The Myth of Fasted Cardio

[leonidas300]

Since no one post anything science related in this forum I guess I will post an exercise article that at least has science in it and is important as people are always asking what supplements to take during their fasted cardio. The answer is do not perform cardio in a fasted state. the following article explains why.

http://www.alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-part-2-false-hopes-for-fasted-cardio.html

[MikeCellucor]

Agreed! ...HIIT for the win. Also, low carb meal pre Steady State for me.

I have always done well with this combination. Fat Burner, 10g BCAA, 5g Glutamine, and 2g Alcar in the morning. Then do some steady state, but that is only 1-2 days a week. 3 days a week its HIIT. I actually have put an inch on my legs just with HIIT. I took 3 weeks off direct leg work because my knees were giving me issues. Still grew...go figure. Profit!

[leonidas300]

Agreed! ...HIIT for the win. Also, low carb meal pre Steady State for me.

I have always done well with this combination. Fat Burner, 10g BCAA, 5g Glutamine, and 2g Alcar in the morning. Then do some steady state, but that is only 1-2 days a week. 3 days a week its HIIT. I actually have put an inch on my legs just with HIIT. I took 3 weeks off direct leg work because my knees were giving me issues. Still grew...go figure. Profit!

HIIT can indeed produce some nice muscle growth. Christian Thib talks in one of his articles that he has witnessed no other activity put on as much muscular weight as having his trainees perform 400 meter sprints.

[oigo72]

yea i can attest to losing tons of muscle while doing cardio fasted... it suckshttps://mysmilecity.com/images/34/1234484325/yellsign.gif

[Stomp]

I always sip Xtend, Intrabolic etc during fasted cardio. I not sure if this can be called "fasted cardio" but essentially I do it in the morning before breakfast.

[MadMardegan]

I always sip Xtend, Intrabolic etc during fasted cardio. I not sure if this can be called "fasted cardio" but essentially I do it in the morning before breakfast.

I have been taking a protein shake and some BCAA's to reduce catabolism before going on the treadmill for about an hour, all the while keeping my heat rate at 120 bpm. I was told that I shouldn't let it go above that because at a higher rate you are burning muscle too.

[neuron]

Since no one post anything science related in this forum I guess I will post an exercise article that at least has science in it and is important as people are always asking what supplements to take during their fasted cardio. The answer is do not perform cardio in a fasted state. the following article explains why.

http://www.alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-part-2-false-hopes-for-fasted-cardio.html

It says not to do fasted cardio if you're trying to maintain glycogen stores.

Fat oxidation is obviously increased in the fasted state.

Plus, for those looking to lose weight, the simple act of breaking down glycogen requires the hormone that is also responsible for catabolizing fat (glucagon).

[markus_ruhl]

And the problem of post exercise cardio.....

Combining Cardio and Resistance Exercise Disrupts Anabolic Gene Expression!

Breaking News: In this month?s Journal of Applied Physiology, researchers reported that if you are trying to gain muscle mass, combing resistance exercise and cardio in the same session may disrupt genes for anabolism. Previous research has observed only modest hypertrophy with endurance training combined with resistance exercise in skeletal muscle of subjects. Therefore, the possibility exists that the cumulative adaptive effect with consecutive resistance and endurance exercise bouts results in an ?interference effect? with concurrent training. Researchers took trained men and assigned them to either one of two conditions: One experimental trial consisted of a bout of resistance exercise followed by a bout of endurance exercise (cycling) while in the other trial subjects performed the reverse exercise order (i.e. endurance then resistance exercise).


* Following a standardized warm-up (2 x 5 repetitions at 50% and 60% 1RM, respectively), subjects performed 8 sets of 5 repetitions at ~80% 1-RM. Each set was separated by a 3 min recovery period during which the subject remained seated on the leg extension machine.
* Subjects performed 30 min of continuous cycling at a power output that elicited ~70% of individual VO2peak.


Muscle biopsies were taken before, 15 minutes after exercise and 3 hours after exercise. Basically, it?s a ?no win? situation no matter which way you look at it. Combing cardio and resistance exercise disrupted genes for muscle anabolism. For example, here is what the researchers found when genes were analyzed:

Cardio before Resistance Exercise- A novel finding was that an endurance bout undertaken prior to resistance exercise suppressed IGF-I Ea (a gene splice of IGF-1) mRNA (-42%) and also induced small declines in Mechano Growth Factor (-27%). The findings of the present study represent the collective effect of diverse contraction modes and it is tempting to speculate that endurance exercise immediately preceding resistance exercise attenuates the anabolic response.

Resistance Exercise then Cardio- Cardio performed after resistance exercise increased genes for muscle tissue breakdown. For example, muscle breakdown genes were elevated Atrogin (21%) and MuRF (53%) mRNA when cycling was performed subsequent to resistance exercise. Previous studies have shown that Atrogin and MuRF mRNA (genes for muscle tissue breakdown) following a single bout of endurance exercise were elevated. Thus, the results indicate that endurance activity after resistance training may have the capacity to exacerbate the genes for catabolism and subsequent protein degradation. Consequently, when resistance exercise is undertaken after endurance exercise, up-regulation of ubiquitin ligase expression may be suppressed. Moreover, PGC-1α mRNA which is a gene that turns ?on? an aerobic phenotype was elevated when cycling preceded resistance exercise.


In summary, the results indicate that endurance activity performed prior to resistance exercise may diminish the anabolic response while performing endurance after resistance exercise may exacerbate inflammation and protein degradation. The results provide support for the contention that (acute) combing cardio and resistance exercise training back to back does not promote optimal activation of anabolic pathways. Thus, undertaking both resistance exercise/cardio together in close proximity influences the acute molecular profile and likely exacerbates acute ?interference? of key anabolic signaling pathways.

If you going to do cardio, it may be better to perform it earlier or later in the day as opposed to doing it before or after resistance exercise for an optimal anabolic effect.


Comments or Opinion on this study?

J Appl Physiol. 2009 Jan 22. [Epub ahead of print]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/DAVEPA%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif Links
Consecutive bouts of diverse contractile activity alter acute responses in human skeletal muscle.

Coffey VG, Pilegaard H, Garnham AP, O'Brien BJ, Hawley JA.
RMIT University.
We examined acute molecular responses in skeletal muscle to divergent exercise stimuli by combining consecutive bouts of resistance and endurance exercise. Eight men (22.9 +/- 6.3 yr, body mass 73.2 +/- 4.5 kg, VO2peak 54.0 +/- 5.7 mL(.)kg(-1)(.)min(-1)) were randomly assigned to complete trials consisting of either resistance exercise (8 x 5 leg extension, 80% 1RM) followed by a bout of endurance exercise (30 min cycling, 70% VO2peak), or vice-versa. Muscle biopsies were obtained from the vastus lateralis at rest, 15 min after each exercise bout and following 3 h of passive recovery to determine early signaling and mRNA responses. Phosphorylation of Akt and Akt1 (ser473) were elevated 15 min after resistance exercise but not cycling, with the greatest increase observed when resistance exercise followed cycling (~55%, P<0.01). TSC2-mTOR-S6K phosphorylation 15 min following each bout of exercise was similar regardless of exercise mode. The cumulative effect of combined exercise resulted in disparate mRNA responses. IGF-I mRNA content was reduced when cycling preceded resistance exercise (-42%) while MuRF mRNA was elevated when cycling was undertaken after resistance exercise (~52%, P<0.05). The HKII mRNA level was higher following resistance-cycling (~45%, P<0.05) than cycling-resistance exercise, while modest increases in PGC-1 mRNA did not reveal an order effect. We conclude that acute responses to diverse bouts of contractile activity are modified by the exercise order. Moreover, undertaking divergent exercise in close proximity influences the acute molecular profile and likely exacerbates "adaptation interference". Key words: endurance, resistance exercise, acute responses, skeletal muscle.

http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=55620

[CapnPowerMonger]

I've tried it all, and I will be doing my fasted cardio forever thank you. I even tried BCAA's before the workout for a month or so and even that slowed the fat loss. I think you just have to suffer through being more "catabolic" if you want the most effective fat burning. This is through trial and error. Just giving my opinion and 11 years of experience on the subject.

[leonidas300]

It says not to do fasted cardio if you're trying to maintain glycogen stores.

Fat oxidation is obviously increased in the fasted state.

Plus, for those looking to lose weight, the simple act of breaking down glycogen requires the hormone that is also responsible for catabolizing fat (glucagon).

neuron I mistakenly linked to the second part of that article did you go back and read the first part? If not here are the highlights

? In acute trials, fat oxidation during exercise tends to be higher in low-intensity treatments, but postexercise fat oxidation and/or energy expenditure tends to be higher in high-intensity treatments.
? Fed subjects consistently experience a greater thermic effect postexercise in both intensity ranges.
? In 24-hr trials, there is no difference in fat oxidation between the 2 types, pointing to a delayed rise in fat oxidation in the high-intensity groups which evens out the field.
? In long-term studies, both linear high-intensity and HIIT training is superior to lower intensities on the whole for maintaining and/or increasing cardiovascular fitness & lean mass, and are at least as effective, and according to some research, far better at reducing bodyfat.

[Lonewolf24]

this definitely needs to get posted to the "workout programs" and "nutrition" sections-its ridiculous the amount of times I hear this

[Trans_Isomer]

Heres a little snippet from one of my post on the subject..



Resistance exercise and aerobic endurance training don't mix!

When you combine resistance exercise with endurance training, strength and performance is impaired. (2,4,3). Callister et al showed (5) that concurrent sprint (type II fiber training) alongside aerobic endurance training (type I fiber training) decreased sprint speed and jump power. Explanations from the authors state possible adverse neural changes / alterations of muscle proteins in the fibers.

Endurance training does not present enough of a stimulus for hypertrophy of type I muscle fibers. Type I fibers actually resist hypertrophy by downregulating their own testosterone receptors. From the Kraemer study, my NSCA book states:

Hypertrophy does not typically take place with aerobic endurance training. In fact, oxidative stress may actually promote a decrease in muscle fiber size in order to optimize oxygen transport into the cell. (1)

Thats right... a DECREASE IN MUSCLE FIBER SIZE

the aerobic endurance training group had a higher cortisol response and a reduced testosterone response, promoting a more catabolic environment in the body, even for muscle proteins. The resistance training group saw increases in testosterone but decreases in cortisol in response to the exercise stress, indicating a greater anabolic environment. (1)

And talking about needing increased cardiovascular fitness..

It appears that every athlete needs a basic level of cardiovascular endurance, which can be achieved using a wide variety of training modalities and programs. The traditional modality has been the slow, long-distance run. For the strength and power ahtlete, however, this may be irrelevant or even detrimental to power development. Adequate gains in aerobic fitness can be accomplished with interval training when appropriate and needed. The old concept of an 'aerobic base' for purposes of recovery in anerobic sports is somewhat misunderstood; athletes can gain aerobic training adaptations without the use of long-distance running because a variety of alternative training programs exist. (1)

So All in All if you want:
-Decreased Strength
-Decreased Performance
-Decreased Test levels
-Increased Cortisol levels
-Muscle loss

... do aerobic endurance training!

transX

(1)Baechle, Earle, Essentials of Strength and Conditioning ? National Strength and Conditioning Association
(2)Dudley, G.A, and R. Djamil, Incompatibility of endurance and strength training modes of exercise. J. Appl Physiol. 59:1446-1451.1985
(3)Dudley, G.A., and S.J. Fleck. Strength and endurance training: Are they mutually exclusive? Sports Med. 4:79-85.1987
(4)Kraemer, W.J., J.F. Patton, S.E. Gordon, E.A. Harman, M.R. Deschenes, K. Reynolds, R.U. Newton, N.T. Triplett, and J.E. Dziados. Compatibility of high intensity strength and endurance training on hormonal and skeletal muscle adaptations. J. Appl Physiol. 78(3):976-989.1995
(5)Callister, R., M.J. Shealy, S.J. Fleck, and G.A. Dudley. Performance adaptations to sprint, endurance and both modes of training. J. Appl Sport Sci. Res. 2:46-51.1988
(6)Hickson, R.C. Interference of strength development by simultaneously training for strength and endurance. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 45:255-263.1980

[trygve]

* Following a standardized warm-up (2 x 5 repetitions at 50% and 60% 1RM, respectively), subjects performed 8 sets of 5 repetitions at ~80% 1-RM. Each set was separated by a 3 min recovery period during which the subject remained seated on the leg extension machine.
* Subjects performed 30 min of continuous cycling at a power output that elicited ~70% of individual VO2peak.
response.


Comments or Opinion on this study?


Sounds like these studies showed a decreased anabolic response from following resistance exercise with aerobic exercise on the same muscles. While that is certainly interesting, I don't see how it suggests anything more dramatic than not to do aerobic exrecise after resistance training on leg workout days.

I'm guessing that at least some readers of these forums also perform resistance training on other body parts. Is there anything to suggest a decreased anabolic response from following, say, chest-shoulders-triceps with a bout of aerobic cycling?

[adrenergic]

Would 10 mins of high intensity steady state be detrimental?


I workout fasted and do cardio right after.

[Trans_Isomer]

Would 10 mins of high intensity steady state be detrimental?


I workout fasted and do cardio right after.

What exactly are you doing for this cardio?

[ahez1991]

Would 10 mins of high intensity steady state be detrimental?


I workout fasted and do cardio right after.

i do 20 minutes of HIIT right after waking up fasted so id like to know if its detrimental as well. right after HIIT though i go home and eat breakfast and then go to the gym to lift

[deserusan]

I'll stick to fasted cardio and HIT on occasion. The problem with going with "straight science" with something like this is that there is so much anecdotal evidence which suggests otherwise. I do agree it's not the best thing for glycogen status but when you are cutting (let's say for a bodybuilding show), the last thing you are worried about is that and the goal is extreme fat loss. If you are performance athlete then the glycogen status argument has merit.

Regardless, when discussion like this takes place it might help if the discussion pertained to bodybuilders or athletes. Furthermore, it might help to discuss the dietary protocols and how the "science" drastically changes with regards to this.

[Trans_Isomer]

i do 20 minutes of HIIT right after waking up fasted so id like to know if its detrimental as well. right after HIIT though i go home and eat breakfast and then go to the gym to lift

HIIT is a mixup of sprint work, so its fine. I however would not be going into it completely fasted from sleep, I would do:

-2 hours before sprint work, meal consisting of protein / fats, go back to sleep or whatever, then workout once 2 hours has passed.

Make sure you are properly hydrated throughout it all.

[adrenergic]

What exactly are you doing for this cardio?

basically, i just go at ~185 HR for 10-20 mins


sometimes elliptical, other times treadmill i'll just run at like 10 mph on a steep incline the whole time.

[Trans_Isomer]

basically, i just go at ~185 HR for 10-20 mins


sometimes elliptical, other times treadmill i'll just run at like 10 mph on a steep incline the whole time.

185HR / 10mph with incline, yeah you most definitely are going all out with that, I would say you are fine, what you are doing is definitely stimulating type II muscle fibers.

[ahez1991]

HIIT is a mixup of sprint work, so its fine. I however would not be going into it completely fasted from sleep, I would do:

-2 hours before sprint work, meal consisting of protein / fats, go back to sleep or whatever, then workout once 2 hours has passed.

Make sure you are properly hydrated throughout it all.

if i were to do that i might as well eat breakfast go to the gym weight train and then just do HIIT after that. I dont have time to wake up eat breakfast go to sleep again and then do cardio, i dont know anyone who has that sort of time. But thanks for your input

[Trans_Isomer]

if i were to do that i might as well eat breakfast go to the gym weight train and then just do HIIT after that. I dont have time to wake up eat breakfast go to sleep again and then do cardio, i dont know anyone who has that sort of time. But thanks for your input

A pre-made shake next to your bed with fats added in would take maybe a minute to down, I don't really see how much time that really is taking. But nevertheless good luck with what you choose to do.

[adrenergic]

Lol, I only eat dinner, it's so awesome.

[leonidas300]

if i were to do that i might as well eat breakfast go to the gym weight train and then just do HIIT after that. I dont have time to wake up eat breakfast go to sleep again and then do cardio, i dont know anyone who has that sort of time. But thanks for your input

I don't think it is necessary to eat that far in advance of your HIIT training. Each person is different but the crucial factor is the size of the meal prior to training and how dense that meal is. I light meal of 2 hard boiled eggs + some OJ would provide your body with sufficient nutrients while avoiding the performance diminishment due to digestion. Keep the meal light about 45 minutes to training and you should be fine.

[dark818]

if it's such a big myth, then how is it that so many bodybuilders and athletes do it with great success?

It seems to me that those who look for studies to counter what has been proven over and over again are simple too lazy to get up and do their cardio..

[leonidas300]

if it's such a big myth, then how is it that so many bodybuilders and athletes do it with great success?

It seems to me that those who look for studies to counter what has been proven over and over again are simple too lazy to get up and do their cardio..

How exactly has it been proven? Anecdotal evidence is not proof. Some of the bodybuilders who employ it are using so many pharmaceutical enhancements they can do just about anything and it will be a success. Other people are so genetically advantaged they can perform any program and have it work. for the genetically average, chemically unassisted trainee has to do is not only train hard, but they must train smart as well. The programs implemented by pros are by no means effective for the average trainee. this has nothing to do with dedication, it has to do with maximizing your programs effectivness.

[Trans_Isomer]

if it's such a big myth, then how is it that so many bodybuilders and athletes do it with great success?

It seems to me that those who look for studies to counter what has been proven over and over again are simple too lazy to get up and do their cardio..

This post angered me.

[Catchol]

Lol, I only eat dinner, it's so awesome.

You're going to go straight catabolic, brah! You need to eat at least 12 meals per day, otherwise your body will turn into dust.

[adrenergic]

This post angered me.

Uh oh. http://www.benbest.com/health/Trans-2-butene.jpg

[dark818]

I'm sorry if I angered you. But i'v done it and tested results and it worked for me. I'm not a body builder or anything, and average guy.

There are so many out there who have used fasted cardio and lowered their body fat tremendously.

So until you go and try it yourself i think it's not cool to just come out and call it a myth.

[Trans_Isomer]

I'm sorry if I angered you. But i'v done it and tested results and it worked for me. I'm not a body builder or anything, and average guy.

There are so many out there who have used fasted cardio and lowered their body fat tremendously.

So until you go and try it yourself i think it's not cool to just come out and call it a myth.

When did I specifically state it was a myth?

You aren't getting simple concepts here, no one is doubting fasted cardio won't burn fat, but is it optimal? From the research, no. You will burn up a lot of muscle alongside the fat, alongside some bad hormonal cascades. If you spent a minute to read the thread you would know that, instead you decided to post some nonsense.

[dark818]

The threads title reads "The Myth of Fasted Cardio"

... uh yeah and I know you didn't title it that but i was really referring to the OP

and don't you agree that if you control the intensity and limit the session to 30-45 min the chances of using muscle as fuel is quite small..?

[Trans_Isomer]

The threads title reads "The Myth of Fasted Cardio"

... uh yeah and I know you didn't title it that but i was really referring to the OP

and don't you agree that if you control the intensity and limit the session to 30-45 min the chances of using muscle as fuel is quite small..?

Cutting = Lose as much fat as possible, lose as little muscle as possible

I am an exercise physiologist, it is my job to stay up to date with the research and offer my clients the best possible advice with regards to nutrition / training / supplementation. Optimizing your cutting diet / training routine will enhance your results leading to less muscle loss and more fat loss in a shorter amount of time.

We are on a supplement board. Why? To give us the 'extra edge' we need to enhance our performance / body composition. Though you might not, the majority of us strive to get that 'extra edge' through training and diet as well, hence this thread.

[C-Squared]

I'm very glad to read this!

I personally can't seem to shake the habit of longer cardio sessions (i.e. steady 8 mph for an hour) instead of HIIT, bit I always make sure to eat an hour before I do it.