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EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 02:44 PM
Just wanted to get an idea how you guys lower yourself to parallel or ATG in a squat. I would hope that anyone squatting with any decent weight is descending under control but do you guys use muscle to descend (not just as brakes) or are you going with gravity?

SP1966
02-12-2009, 02:49 PM
Maybe I don't understand the question but I do not pull the weight down, gravity does that for me though I do use muscle to control the decent. Again, I don't really get your question so my answer may not be what your looking for.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 02:58 PM
Maybe I don't understand the question but I do not pull the weight down, gravity does that for me though I do use mucle to control the decent. Again, I don't really get your question so my answer may not be what your looking for.

Your answer is what I'm looking for. I guess to put it another way would be how do you descend in a squat.

baker
02-12-2009, 03:52 PM
I was taught to stay as tight as possible on the decent and explode out of the bottom.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 03:53 PM
I was taught to stay as tight as possible on the decent and explode out of the bottom.

Yes...but how do you descend? Do you use muscle to pull you down or do you let gravity pull you while controlling your descent with muscle.

flexxed
02-12-2009, 03:56 PM
first make sure form is right, use a large exercise ball, the bouncy kind and sit on or use a chair your form should be as if you're sitting down, use your hips on the way dow and quads on way up, also you should use "blocking" which consists of holding a lot of air in your chest and sticking it out, contracting your abs and flexing your lower back

Todd_A
02-12-2009, 03:57 PM
I control the negative (down movement) using my muscles, then hold for a second at the bottom to avoid benefitting from any possible momentum from the bounce, then power up as fast as I can.

I don't think I use the opposing muscles fighting agains the working muscles while lowering the weight, if that is what you are asking. I have noticed myself doing that before with curls though.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 03:59 PM
first make sure form is right, use a large exercise ball, the bouncy kind and sit on or use a chair your form should be as if you're sitting down, use your hips on the way dow and quads on way up, also you should use "blocking" which consists of holding a lot of air in your chest and sticking it out, contracting your abs and flexing your lower back

Thanks for the advice but I know how to squat. I am just curious as to how others descend into the hole or into an ATG squat. You say use your hips on the way down. Does that mean you are using your hip flexors to pull yourself down?

baker
02-12-2009, 04:02 PM
Yes...but how do you descend? Do you use muscle to pull you down or do you let gravity pull you while controlling your descent with muscle.

I flex my quads, glutes, abs, etc and control the descent. I believe that if you don't do this you end up flexing your glutes in the bottom and end up rolling your lower back. If you watch some people squat you can actually see their cheeks flex in the bottom that's not the proper form, or at least that's the way I was trained.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 04:02 PM
I control the negative (down movement) using my muscles, then hold for a second at the bottom to avoid benefitting from any possible momentum from the bounce, then power up as fast as I can.

I don't think I use the opposing muscles fighting agains the working muscles while lowering the weight, if that is what you are asking. I have noticed myself doing that before with curls though.

No that isn't what I am asking. By controlling the negative you are using muscles. I am trying to find out how people descend. IOW, are you using muscles to power you descent or do you drop under gravity power as SP1966 does?

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 04:05 PM
I flex my quads, glutes, abs, etc and control the descent. I believe that if you don't do this you end up flexing your glutes in the bottom and end up rolling your lower back. If you watch some people squat you can actually see their cheeks flex in the bottom that's not the proper form, or at least that's the way I was trained.

i understand you control the descent. That isn't what I asked. Maybe someone can reword the question for me since sp1966 is really the only one who answered what I asked. How do you power the descent Baker? Are muscles supplying the power to pull you down or is gravity?

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 04:06 PM
I really should have reworded this question.

baker
02-12-2009, 04:07 PM
Ahh......

Yes. I resist the weight, so in essence it sort of like a negative.

I hope that answer it. :)

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 04:10 PM
Ahh......

Yes. I resist the weight, so in essence it sort of like a negative.

I hope that answer it. :)

You missed the mark again :)

I already understand you resist by you saying you control the descent. What supplies the power that enables the descent, your muscles pulling you down or gravity?

baker
02-12-2009, 04:12 PM
You missed the mark again :)

I already understand you resist by you saying you control the descent. What supplies the power that enables the descent, your muscles pulling you down or gravity?

Gravity for the win!!! :D

Sorry, I've had a long day at work. My brain is fried.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 04:14 PM
Gravity for the win!!! :D

Sorry, I've had a long day at work. My brain is fried.

You answered :D

That's ok, it's almost Friday :)

dbx
02-12-2009, 04:52 PM
I really should have reworded this question.

Well, pondering doing it, regretting doing it, and actually doing it are all different things.

ntrllftr
02-12-2009, 04:53 PM
When going to parallel I will put on the breaks.
When I go ATG I will switch on the ABS system.

.

heatwave13
02-12-2009, 04:56 PM
I actually make a conscious effort to "lower" myself to the bottom position; almost as if it's a separate movement. I do not let gravity take over! When I lower myself down, I am making an effort to contract my abs and brace my feet, hips, and lower back using a big breath inhale.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 04:57 PM
I actually make a conscious effort to "lower" myself to the bottom position; almost as if it's a separate movement. I do not let gravity take over! When I lower myself down, I am making an effort to contract my abs and brace my lower back using a big breath inhale.

Ok. The muscles used for bracing aren't lowering you. What muscle or muscles are?

woodlake
02-12-2009, 04:58 PM
Yes...but how do you descend? Do you use muscle to pull you down or do you let gravity pull you while controlling your descent with muscle.

Please explain what you mean by "use muscle to pull you down". I understand the second part about controlling descent via muscle controll against the pull of gravity.

bodyhard
02-12-2009, 04:59 PM
OK I never get all scientific when it comes to training as I just do what I need to do without giving it so much thought, but.


Don't ya think if you use muscles to "pull" the weight "down" you will actually descend "faster" since you are going with gravity??????

Wouldn't it make sense to restrict the descend to control the form?

Again I am just talking out of my ass cause I just do it, but am I right here?

heatwave13
02-12-2009, 05:00 PM
Ok. The muscles used for bracing aren't lowering you. What muscle or muscles are?

Ok, then, whatever the muscles are that I use when I bend my knees? I don't know. I just do it.....

heatwave13
02-12-2009, 05:01 PM
Paralysis from over-analysis

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:02 PM
Please explain what you mean by "use muscle to pull you down". I understand the second part about controlling descent via muscle controll against the pull of gravity.

Can't really explain it. All I can say is if you are not dropping under gravity's power you must be using a muscle or muscles in order to do so. Guess the closest I can come to illustrating it would be in a curl. When you lower the weight you can let gravity pull down or you can flex your tricep pushing the weight down.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:03 PM
Ok, then, whatever the muscles are that I use when I bend my knees? I don't know. I just do it.....

Quads and hamstrings.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:06 PM
Don't ya think if you use muscles to "pull" the weight "down" you will actually descend "faster" since you are going with gravity??????

No not necessarily. Remember that the descent is being controlled.

Bando
02-12-2009, 05:07 PM
hold for a second at the bottom to avoid benefiting from any possible momentum from the bounce

I wish I had read this sentence before I ever began squatting

heatwave13
02-12-2009, 05:07 PM
I guess the closest thing I can see it as would be like I am doing a negative with the quads and lower back.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:07 PM
I wish I had read this sentence before I began squatting

Some people need to read that before benching...

woodlake
02-12-2009, 05:11 PM
Can't really explain it. All I can say is if you are not dropping under gravity's power you must be using a muscle or muscles in order to do so. Guess the closest I can come to illustrating it would be in a curl. When you lower the weight you can let gravity pull down or you can flex your tricep pushing the weight down.

OK, Then to answer your question as best I can,
A controlled descent using muscle to attempt to counter act the pull of gravity. I don't know which exact muscles or exactly how. I just know that since I am not folding into to the ground the minute I break at the hips and knees there is some muscle involved.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:14 PM
OK, Then to answer your question as best I can,
A controlled descent using muscle to attempt to counter act the pull of gravity. I don't know which exact muscles or exactly how. I just know that since I am not folding into to the ground the minute I break at the hips and knees there is some muscle involved.

Yes, you are controlling the descent. IOW, you are resisting gravity not actively pulling under your own power. That was the question but it appears it wasn't clear at all.

woodlake
02-12-2009, 05:20 PM
Yes, you are controlling the descent. IOW, you are resisting gravity not actively pulling under your own power. That was the question but it appears it wasn't clear at all.

Why would you need to pull yourself down isn't that what gravity is doing?

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:23 PM
Why would you need to pull yourself down isn't that what gravity is doing?

I never said you need to (or don't need to), I just want to know how different people do it. I can tell you though that loading a muscle will increase strength.

woodlake
02-12-2009, 05:28 PM
I never said you need to (or don't need to), I just want to know how different people do it. I can tell you though that loading a muscle will increase strength.

ok, understood.

AlanBee
02-12-2009, 05:32 PM
well I don't let gravity push me down, so it's probablly something like using your glutes and hams to pull you down while using your quads to provide controlled resistance ?

or maybe I'm just talking cr*p - it's late over here :)

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:32 PM
ok, understood.

A more picturesque way to put it is that to fire a pump action shotgun, you gotta pump it first otherwise it ain't gonna shoot.

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 05:33 PM
well I don't let gravity push me down, so it's probablly something like using your glutes and hams to pull you down while using your quads to provide controlled resistance ?

or maybe I'm just talking cr*p - it's late over here :)

Alan, it isn't a test :)

chodan9
02-12-2009, 06:04 PM
I dont think there as any muscle based pull when descending, there is a muscle based resistance to the pull of gravity, but the muscles cant really aid in the descent only in controlling its speed, depth and duration.
now on the ascent, thats a whole other thing :)

OZBB
02-12-2009, 06:10 PM
I'm sure everyone has said it in their own way already, but my 2cents.... I control the decent.... I dont use muscle to "pull" down, but rather use muscle to resist gravity.....to slow the descent, if I let gravity do it I'd crash through the floor..... so the decent is more a case of "resisting" the weight to slow the downward action, then you use the muscle again to power back up.... I use this same concept for a lot of other exercises....bicep curls, bench press etc.... you gotta control the negative, just as important as powering into the positive.

OZBB

SP1966
02-12-2009, 06:54 PM
Pulling the weight down in any free weight exercise makes no sense. You are using your muscle to resist gravity, not assist it. Trying to pull the weight down faster than gravity would do by itself is a sure recipe for injury. The entire premise of this thread makes no sense to me at all.

chodan9
02-12-2009, 07:00 PM
The entire premise of this thread makes no sense to me at all.

well yeah

kind of what I was thinking,

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 07:01 PM
Pulling the weight down in any free weight exercise makes no sense. You are using your muscle to resist gravity, not assist it. Trying to pull the weight down faster than gravity would do by itself is a sure recipe for injury. The entire premise of this thread makes no sense to me at all.

Asking a question makes no sense to you? Hope you are not a teacher :)

SP1966
02-12-2009, 07:02 PM
Asking a question makes no sense to you? Hope you are not a teacher :)
The question itself make no sense to me.

There are NO stupid questions! There are however many stupid people asking questions!! ;)

Bando
02-12-2009, 07:03 PM
The question itself make no sense to me.

There are NO stupid questions! There are however many stupid people asking questions!! ;)

and many stupid people answering them on occasion

SP1966
02-12-2009, 07:04 PM
and many stupid people answering them on occasion
D'oh!! :D Busted!! Am I that transparent? LOL

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 07:04 PM
The question itself make no sense to me.

There are NO stupid questions! There are however many stupid people asking questions!! ;)

Question makes perfect sense, some people just don't like to think so they can answer.

freebirdmac
02-12-2009, 07:13 PM
Pulling the weight down in any free weight exercise makes no sense. You are using your muscle to resist gravity, not assist it. Trying to pull the weight down faster than gravity would do by itself is a sure recipe for injury. The entire premise of this thread makes no sense to me at all.

This was my thought as well. Unless you're using an assisted Smith machine, there's no pulling. From the moment you put the bar on your back you're working against the pull of gravity. All one can do is resist the pull of gravity by pushing back to either remain standing or to control the descent. The upward motion is thought of as a pushing motion as you're pushing with your legs, but it's really a pull against gravity.

chodan9
02-12-2009, 07:55 PM
in the curl illustration, there should be very little tricep activation on the downward part of the movement at all, because there is no need to push the weight down at any time.
you wrote
"When you lower the weight you can let gravity pull down or you can flex your tricep pushing the weight down."
how would you go about pushing the weight down on a bicep curl? Its already going down..unless you wished to push the weight down faster than gravity is pulling it already... LOL then its BAM! weight smashes nuts!

SP1966
02-12-2009, 07:57 PM
in the curl illustration, there should be very little tricep activation on the downward part of the movement at all, because there is no need to push the weight down at any time.
you wrote
"When you lower the weight you can let gravity pull down or you can flex your tricep pushing the weight down."
how would you go about pushing the weight down on a bicep curl? Its already going down..unless you wished to push the weight down faster than gravity is pulling it already... LOL then its BAM! weight smashes nuts!
I think we need Mikieson to clear this up for us! LOL

EnigmaPower
02-12-2009, 08:06 PM
in the curl illustration, there should be very little tricep activation on the downward part of the movement at all, because there is no need to push the weight down at any time.
you wrote
"When you lower the weight you can let gravity pull down or you can flex your tricep pushing the weight down."
how would you go about pushing the weight down on a bicep curl? Its already going down..unless you wished to push the weight down faster than gravity is pulling it already... LOL then its BAM! weight smashes nuts!

Never said there was a need to flex the tricep, it was an illustration that is all and the weight wouldn't hit you unless you were asleep or didn't understand to use your bicep to control the downward motion before it snapped your elbow.

JoelM05
02-12-2009, 08:12 PM
I don't know if I'm actually "pulling" the weight, or if I'm just tensing the muscles..but I can actually feel my lats in a squat. But then again..I'm probably doing it wrong. :o

chodan9
02-12-2009, 08:14 PM
Never said there was a need to flex the tricep, it was an illustration that is all and the weight wouldn't hit you unless you were asleep or didn't understand to use your bicep to control the downward motion before it snapped your elbow.

I know you didn't say you needed to. but you only gave 2 options, gravity or pushing with the tricep. I don't think there would be any pushing, if the excerciser trying to do a curl correctly that is.
Are you looking for a specific answer or is it like a brain teaser where no answer is right or wrong?

SP1966
02-12-2009, 08:18 PM
Never said there was a need to flex the tricep, it was an illustration that is all and the weight wouldn't hit you unless you were asleep or didn't understand to use your bicep to control the downward motion before it snapped your elbow.
So in your example you are both pushing down with your triceps and pulling up with your biceps? In this case you would have to have allot more control over your muscles than do I.

Karl_Hungus
02-12-2009, 08:33 PM
So in your example you are both pushing down with your triceps and pulling up with your biceps? In this case you would have to have allot more control over your muscles than do I.

I agree -- Nobody pulls with their tricep when lowering the weight on a curl. That doesn't make any sense ... In fact, your body usually inhibits activation of antagonistic muscles when you are lifting a weight. Also, nobody "pulls" themselves downward when squatting. The closest thing I can think of is "pushing" your hips backward when descending.....

Kiknskreem
02-12-2009, 09:11 PM
How is it that resisting the load on a heavy bar as you perform an eccentric contraction down to the bottom of your squat involves active hip flexion? Yes, the hips and knees are coming into the position of flexion, but do you think you are actually pulling 405 down into the bottom with your hip flexors? I thought the weight pushed you down. Or is there some arcane, esoteric aspect of biomechanics that eludes me here? I see these comments occasionally, and it appears to me that we are using our hip extensors rather thoroughly when we squat, and that the hip flexor muscles (flexion in this case being the proximal function of these muscles, the rectus femoris, sartorius, and tensor fascia latae) are working distally to resist knee flexion, and then to actively extend the knee.

But I could be wrong.

Just a related post.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 05:29 AM
I know you didn't say you needed to. but you only gave 2 options, gravity or pushing with the tricep. I don't think there would be any pushing, if the excerciser trying to do a curl correctly that is.
Are you looking for a specific answer or is it like a brain teaser where no answer is right or wrong?

An illustration isn't asking for an answer.

Marius_Ursus
02-13-2009, 05:37 AM
I go ABG, baby! That's right, ASS BELOW GRASS!!!!!!

I squat so hardcore my hips reach China!

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 06:17 AM
Dude. The answer is gravity. ALL resistance exercise is powered by gravity. We may fiddle with technique as much as we like but gravity is really running the show.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 06:29 AM
Dude. The answer is gravity. ALL resistance exercise is powered by gravity. We may fiddle with technique as much as we like but gravity is really running the show.

If that's the case, why do the people who claim gravity is what powers the descent claim there is any benefit from the negative?

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 06:45 AM
If that's the case, why do the people who claim gravity is what powers the descent claim there is any benefit from the negative?

The eccentric portion of the lift is your muscles acting as a brake to keep gravity from just bringing the bar crashing down.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 06:54 AM
The eccentric portion of the lift is your muscles acting as a brake to keep gravity from just bringing the bar crashing down.

No activity from muscles pulling you down? Then why not just start dead from the bottom?As I said earlier, when you shoot a pump action shotgun you have to pump it first.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 07:15 AM
No activity from muscles pulling you down?

When you bench, do you pull the bar down to your chest?

An eccentric contraction is still a contraction, only the resistance overcomes the effort. So there is muscular activity, but it is not used to actively pull yourself down.



Then why not just start dead from the bottom?As I said earlier, when you shoot a pump action shotgun you have to pump it first.

You definitely don't have to start at the top to do a squat.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 07:21 AM
When you bench, do you pull the bar down to your chest?No i don't but I have spoken to some powerlifters that say they actively pull with their lats.

An eccentric contraction is still a contraction, only the resistance overcomes the effort.
Yes, an eccentric is a contraction that lengthens under load.

You definitely don't have to start at the top to do a squat.

No you don't. You can start a squat from pins in a power rack as well as a bench. However that is avoiding the preloading of the muscles that results in greater strength (like coiling a spring). That is one reason Westside opted to do board presses instead of benching from pins in a power rack.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 07:30 AM
No i don't but I have spoken to some powerlifters that say they actively pull with their lats.

Pulling the bar down is only something you have to do with a bench shirt on.



No you don't. You can start a squat from pins in a power rack as well as a bench. However that is avoiding the preloading of the muscles that results in greater strength (like coiling a spring). That is one reason Westside opted to do board presses instead of benching from pins in a power rack.

I thought the point of the shotgun analogy was that you have to pump it before you fire it.... a lift without an eccentric is definitely less efficient, but I don't understand what that has to do with pulling yourself down in a squat?

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 07:34 AM
Pulling the bar down is only something you have to do with a bench shirt on.
I didn't say it was something that had to be done. Are you reading what I write or am I wasting my time with you?

I thought the point of the shotgun analogy was that you have to pump it before you fire it.... a lift without an eccentric is definitely less efficient, but I don't understand what that has to do with pulling yourself down in a squat?If you don't preload your muscles on the negative, you are cheating yourself out of alot of strength and probably gonna be stuck handling weenie weights.

joestrom2002
02-13-2009, 07:40 AM
With all due respect, what the f*ck have you been smoking?

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 07:41 AM
If you don't preload your muscles on the negative, you are cheating yourself out of alot of strength and probably gonna be stuck handling weenie weights.

Your muscles are being pre-loaded in the eccentric anyway, there's no need to actively pull your hip and knees into flexion.

ntrllftr
02-13-2009, 07:43 AM
turning into a real good mooveeee here

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj210/carlman1/popcorn1.gif



Seriously though, making things in life more complicated than it needs to be.
Go to the gym, squat the bar and get results with time. < period

.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 07:44 AM
Your muscles are being pre-loaded in the eccentric anyway, there's no need to actively pull your hip and knees into flexion.

Again and for the last time, I never said actively pulling was needed. I suggest you either read what I actually wrote or stop your stupidity of trying to put words in my mouth. Fact is without actively pulling with your muscles you are cheating yourself out of alot of strength. If that is what you prefer, do it.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 07:48 AM
Again and for the last time, I never said actively pulling was needed. I suggest you either read what I actually wrote or stop your stupidity of trying to put words in my mouth. Fact is without actively pulling with your muscles you are cheating yourself out of alot of strength. If that is what you prefer, do it.

Let me put it this way... there is no benefit to actively flexing the hip in a squat descent.


I thought we were having a perfectly polite discussion on training... I was trying to answer your question of why there is a benefit to the negative portion of the lift even though gravity is what powers its descent. No idea why you incessantly try to turn everything into an "I'm right and you're wrong".

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 07:53 AM
Let me put it this way... there is no benefit to actively flexing the hip in a squat descent. As far as strength, there is.

I thought we were having a perfectly polite discussion on training

It might be polite to you when you put words into my mouth be assuming certain things are said that weren't but sadly most civilized folk don't appreciate it nor do they think it's polite.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 07:58 AM
As far as strength, there is.

And you came to this conclusion because you think that you aren't primed for the concentric without doing so? Not trying to put words in your mouth... so is the previous statement accurate?

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:00 AM
And you came to this conclusion because you think that you aren't primed for the concentric without doing so?

Ok, show how there is no difference between a negative utilizing gravity and a negative utilizing active muscles along with gravity.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 08:03 AM
Ok, show how there is no difference between a negative utilizing gravity and a negative utilizing active muscles along with gravity.

Like I was getting at earlier... there IS muscular activity during the negative, but that force is opposing the pull of gravity, not assisting it.

Not sure if you saw this earlier but it is very relevant...


How is it that resisting the load on a heavy bar as you perform an eccentric contraction down to the bottom of your squat involves active hip flexion? Yes, the hips and knees are coming into the position of flexion, but do you think you are actually pulling 405 down into the bottom with your hip flexors? I thought the weight pushed you down. Or is there some arcane, esoteric aspect of biomechanics that eludes me here? I see these comments occasionally, and it appears to me that we are using our hip extensors rather thoroughly when we squat, and that the hip flexor muscles (flexion in this case being the proximal function of these muscles, the rectus femoris, sartorius, and tensor fascia latae) are working distally to resist knee flexion, and then to actively extend the knee.

But I could be wrong.

gkrane
02-13-2009, 08:06 AM
If that's the case, why do the people who claim gravity is what powers the descent claim there is any benefit from the negative?

I think the benefit of the negative is the ability to resist gravity and control the descent on the negative part of the movement. This places additional stress on the muscle.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:07 AM
Like I was getting at earlier... there IS muscular activity during the negative, but that force is opposing the pull of gravity, not assisting it.Can you answer the question I asked and you quoted?

Not sure if you saw this earlier but it is very relevant...I saw it.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:11 AM
I think the benefit of the negative is the ability to resist gravity and control the descent on the negative part of the movement. This places additional stress on the muscle.

Pretty much but without using muscle strength to actively pull down there is no possible way you can generate as much force going up as you can if muscles pulled you down along with gravity. In any event, I asked a question in the OP and some people are not content with answering but they try to push their baloney on others (not referring to you).

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 08:12 AM
Can you answer the question I asked and you quoted?I saw it.

Ok.... a negative utilizing gravity but no muscular activity is going to result in this....

rs52K2zKVbQ


If you think you have to actively flex your hip in the descent to get the most out of your squat... you are incorrect.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 08:13 AM
Pretty much but without using muscle strength to actively pull down there is no possible way you can generate as much force going up as you can if muscles pulled you down along with gravity.

That is incorrect.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:14 AM
That is incorrect.

Answer the damn question or admit you have no idea whatsoever.

Marius_Ursus
02-13-2009, 08:17 AM
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/marius_ursus/motivator4433665.jpg

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 08:18 AM
Answer the damn question or admit you have no idea whatsoever.

Just how would you expect one to "show you" such a thing? You are the one making a positive claim.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:21 AM
Just how would you expect one to "show you" such a thing? You are the one making a positive claim.

Yes I am. Yet you are making the claim ther is no difference. now answer the question or admit you are speaking out your ass.

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 08:21 AM
With all due respect, what the f*ck have you been smoking?

^^ This.

There is a very big difference between what we perceive we are doing, what we coach people to do, and what really happens out here in the physical world of objective reality. Gravity pulls the bar down in a squat or a benchpress or whatever.

In the benchpress, say:
Our mind says: lower with control.
Our coach says: "pull" the weight down with your lats.
But gravity says: resist this load or I will crush you like a bug and I don't care which muscles you recruit to do the job, that's up to you. I AM THE ENGINE OF YOUR WORKOUT, BITCHES!

As a footnote, gravity will try to accelerate any mass at 9.8 m/s/s at sea level. I dare you, just TRY to pull the bar faster than this with any practical weight on the bar. You only THINK you're pulling the bar. Which has many benefits in the weight room. In this thread, however.....

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 08:23 AM
Yes I am. Yet you are making the claim ther is no difference. now answer the question or admit you are speaking out your ass.

The answer to your question is in the Rippetoe quote.

By the way... whatever you're smoking.... I'll take a gram.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:25 AM
^^ This.

There is a very big difference between what we perceive we are doing, what we coach people to do, and what really happens out here in the physical world of objective reality. Gravity pulls the bar down in a squat or a benchpress or whatever.

In the benchpress, say:
Our mind says: lower with control.
Our coach says: "pull" the weight down with your lats.
But gravity says: resist this load or I will crush you like a bug and I don't care which muscles you recruit to do the job, that's up to you. I AM THE ENGINE OF YOUR WORKOUT, BITCHES!
The plain physical fact is without actively pulling the weight down we are cheating ourselves out of alot of strength. If you think that means I am smoking something, fine but I think it means you're missing something (think scarecrow from The Wizard Of Oz).

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:27 AM
The answer to your question is in the Rippetoe quote.

By the way... whatever you're smoking.... I'll take a gram.

Thanks for another post without answering. Guess there is something in the watertable down in Pennsylvania cause you are the second one from there going on my ignore list. Congratulations.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 08:28 AM
The plain physical fact is without actively pulling the weight down we are cheating ourselves out of alot of strength. If you think that means I am smoking something, fine but I think it means you're missing something (think scarecrow from The Wizard Of Oz).

How did you come to such a conclusion?

I train with a rather diverse group of powerlifters, o-lifters, and stongmen, many who are competing at quite high levels... none of whom advocate pulling yourself down in the squat.

I presented you with a mechanical analysis of the squat with the Rippetoe quote to illustrate why one doesn't need to/shouldn't pull themselves down, but you have provided no support for your argument, other than saying "it is so".


Oh no... the ignore list. Enigma... I've seen enough of your posts to know that you are just terribly insecure and have to go around being right all the time. You make arguments out of nothing and are full of malice. I've had enough of the same kind of argument here to understand where you are coming from, and it makes me seriously reconsider the way I conduct myself. It should give you pause as well.

bodyhard
02-13-2009, 08:29 AM
LMFAO on this thread is like hearing someone argue on a phone, you have no idea who he/she is arguing with on the other side, but it is amusing anyway! :D :D :D

Enigma slow your role man, I think you made a point....um I think :D ;)

ntrllftr
02-13-2009, 08:31 AM
LMFAO on this thread is like hearing someone argue on a phone, you have no idea who he/she is arguing with on the other side, but it is amusing anyway! :D :D :D

Enigma slow your role man, I think you made a point....um I think :D ;)



plus I'm outta popcorn. :(

chodan9
02-13-2009, 08:34 AM
An illustration isn't asking for an answer.

I was reffering to your original post in the thread

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:34 AM
plus I'm outta popcorn. :(

Here...

http://www.peoriadefense.com/photo_host/BuildingaBetterCorn.PopcornThatis_C73D/popcorn.jpg

MT_Pawkits
02-13-2009, 08:37 AM
This thread is about as useful as Tit's on a Bull!

isaku900
02-13-2009, 08:41 AM
i have never...ever...ever...pulled the bar down in a squat.

that's a great way to mess up your form and get stapled.

but what do I know...i only squat 700+

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:44 AM
i have never...ever...ever...pulled the bar down in a squat.

that's a great way to mess up your form and get stapled.

Yes it is if you are asleep or not tight but I kinda figured if anyone has any appreciable amount of weight on their back they would be concious and tensed up.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 08:45 AM
Yes it is if you are asleep or not tight but I kinda figured if anyone has any appreciable amount of weight on their back they would be concious and tensed up.

guess 710 isn't appreciable.

I'll ask Cartwright, he's squatted 1102 before...maybe that's enough weight?

no one actively pulls themselves into the hole.

bodyhard
02-13-2009, 08:45 AM
Here...

http://www.peoriadefense.com/photo_host/BuildingaBetterCorn.PopcornThatis_C73D/popcorn.jpg

Thank you, now if only I knew WTF was going on! :eek: :eek:

chodan9
02-13-2009, 08:46 AM
ok
the more I read the more I have become convinced that EP has never lifted a weight in his life, otherwise how would he claim that you pull squats down.
Anyone who has done squats knows that not only is pulling down not needed, its not possible.
Gravity will pull the bar down much faster than a weight lifter can pull it down with a muscle contraction.
Even if you could pull it down, why would you? it would provide no benifit.
The more you argue the point, the less sense it makes.

I have come to the conclusion that this thread was designed soley (or trolley)for the purpose of drawing people into an argument.
What better way to stir up an argument than to insist steadfastly on an impossibility?

this is my last post in this thread.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 08:51 AM
ok
the more I read the more I have become convinced that EP has never lifted a weight in his life, otherwise how would he claim that you pull squats down.
Anyone who has done squats knows that not only is pulling down not needed, its not possible.
Gravity will pull the bar down much faster than a weight lifter can pull it down with a muscle contraction.
Even if you could pull it down, why would you? it would provide no benifit.
The more you argue the point, the less sense it makes.

I have come to the conclusion that this thread was designed soley (or trolley)for the purpose of drawing people into an argument.
What better way to stir up an argument than to insist steadfastly on an impossibility?

this is my last post in this thread.
C'mon up to Traverse City and we will see if I don't outlift you by double on every exercise (triple on squats). You man enough to accept the challenge?

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 08:59 AM
The plain physical fact is without actively pulling the weight down we are cheating ourselves out of alot of strength.

Please define "actively pulling the weight down" within the context of the earth's gravitational field. I'm not trying to pick a fight.

I just think this is one of those wonderful sentences that sounds great and makes us perform better in the weight room because it helps us get our head into the right space, but has no real meaning in the cold hard world of physical forces. We resist the weight on the eccentric contraction. Really. We do.

ntrllftr
02-13-2009, 08:59 AM
C'mon up to Traverse City and we will see if I don't outlift you by double on every exercise (triple on squats). You man enough to accept the challenge?

Open invite?

Metal Jerk
02-13-2009, 09:02 AM
The answer to your question is in the Rippetoe quote.

By the way... whatever you're smoking.... I'll take a gram.

Ill take two.

Dude your a ****ing idiot if you think you need to pull the weight down in a squat, its called gravity ****tard, quit spewing out your stupid bull**** or get the **** off these forums.

ironwill2008
02-13-2009, 09:07 AM
Ill take two.

Dude your a ****ing idiot if you think you need to pull the weight down in a squat, its called gravity ****tard, quit spewing out your stupid bull**** or get the **** off these forums.

Young man, you are wise beyond your years. Reps on recharge. No joke.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 09:08 AM
it doesnt even make any sense. If you actively flexed your knees and hips faster than the rate at which gravity accelerates the bar downward, YOUR FEET WOULD COME OFF THE GROUND.

step away from your computer, stand up, and completely "unweight" yourself. Nobody has ever dive-bombed this hard without getting destroyed.

Unless you have your feet strapped down to the ground, there is no way you can "pull" downward anyway.

AFDestruction
02-13-2009, 09:10 AM
I know exactly what Enigma is asking. I first heard about "pulling yourself into the hole" in Pavel Tsatsouline's book "Power to the People: Russian Strength Training". The idea is to actively flex your hip flexors to help pull yourself down. YES, you are controlling the descent against gravity like normal... but youre also "increasing the weight" per say by creating more resistance by use of your hip flexors. I honestly haven't figured out how the hell to do it, I do know alot of Pavel's techniques have worked really well for me in that past. SOOOO I can't say whether or not it works or not, but OP is not talking out of his ass. This is a known technique

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:10 AM
Please define "actively pulling the weight down" within the context of the earth's gravitational field. I'm not trying to pick a fight.

I just think this is one of those wonderful sentences that sounds great and makes us perform better in the weight room because it helps us get our head into the right space, but has no real meaning in the cold hard world of physical forces. We resist the weight on the eccentric contraction. Really. We do.

What part of use muscle power to actively pull down the weight is the part you can't understand?

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:12 AM
Open invite?

Yeah but no promise that I can out squat you 3 times...maybe 1.5-2 :)

AFDestruction
02-13-2009, 09:14 AM
it doesnt even make any sense. If you actively flexed your knees and hips faster than the rate at which gravity accelerates the bar downward, YOUR FEET WOULD COME OFF THE GROUND.

step away from your computer, stand up, and completely "unweight" yourself. Nobody has ever dive-bombed this hard without getting destroyed.

Unless you have your feet strapped down to the ground, there is no way you can "pull" downward anyway.


The idea is that with the weight on your shoulders you CAN'T lift your feet off the ground. Its not a means of actually PULLING yourself down, its just a way to create more resistance by utilizing the antagonistic muscles. Hopefully, this clarifies what he's saying. And the tricep vs bicep analogy he's talking about. I HAVE tried that, it seems like complete bull****, but can be done and it can help with strength gains. (Its another technique in the same book)

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:14 AM
I know exactly what Enigma is asking. I first heard about "pulling yourself into the hole" in Pavel Tsatsouline's book "Power to the People: Russian Strength Training". The idea is to actively flex your hip flexors to help pull yourself down. YES, you are controlling the descent against gravity like normal... but youre also "increasing the weight" per say by creating more resistance by use of your hip flexors. I honestly haven't figured out how the hell to do it, I do know alot of Pavel's techniques have worked really well for me in that past. SOOOO I can't say whether or not it works or not, but OP is not talking out of his ass. This is a known technique

He says it, that isn't where I have heard it though. Tons of powerlifters practice this whenever they squat.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 09:14 AM
The idea is to actively flex your hip flexors to help pull yourself down. YES, you are controlling the descent against gravity like normal... but youre also "increasing the weight" per say by creating more resistance by use of your hip flexors. I honestly haven't figured out how the hell to do it, I do know alot of Pavel's techniques have worked really well for me in that past. SOOOO I can't say whether or not it works or not, but OP is not talking out of his ass. This is a known technique

If active hip flexion was increasing resistance, that would make the squat harder, not easier... the exact opposite of what Enigma is saying.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 09:16 AM
He says it, that isn't where I have heard it though. Tons of powerlifters practice this whenever they squat.

which ones?

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:16 AM
. And the tricep vs bicep analogy he's talking about. I HAVE tried that, it seems like complete bull****, but can be done and it can help with strength gains. (Its another technique in the same book)

Only reason I mentioned that was because it was the easiest and first reflex that illustrates this that came to mind.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 09:18 AM
He says it, that isn't where I have heard it though. Tons of powerlifters practice this whenever they squat.

None of the pros that I train with do, and so far very few of the PL'ers on this site...

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=114137781

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:18 AM
which ones?

Apparently not the ones you know. Tell me, you have never heard a strength coach or powerlifter say when descending into the hole, pull yourself with your hip flexors?

AFDestruction
02-13-2009, 09:18 AM
Only reason I mentioned that was because it was the easiest and first reflex that illustrates this that came to mind.

K...? I'm just saying where I read it....

ntrllftr
02-13-2009, 09:20 AM
Yeah but no promise that I can out squat you 3 times...maybe 1.5-2 :)

Can we factor in pound for pound as well?
It might (will) :cool: drop even more. :D

AFDestruction
02-13-2009, 09:21 AM
If active hip flexion was increasing resistance, that would make the squat harder, not easier... the exact opposite of what Enigma is saying.

Yea... It's not supposed to make it easier necessarily, as a movement itself. It helps to load the antagonistic muscle which can increase power on ascent... I wouldnt go as far as saying it makes it easier though

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:22 AM
K...? I'm just saying where I read it....

Not a problem. I appreciate that someone actually knows what I was trying to say.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:25 AM
Can we factor in pound for pound as well?
It might (will) :cool: drop even more. :D

How much can you squat, if it's more than 3.27 times bodyweight.....stay in Ohio :)

Retardo-pex
02-13-2009, 09:27 AM
C'mon up to Traverse City and we will see if I don't outlift you by double on every exercise (triple on squats). You man enough to accept the challenge?

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/served.jpg

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 09:29 AM
Its not a means of actually PULLING yourself down, )

oh. I must have assumed the guy meant what he said.

my bad.



Apparently not the ones you know. Tell me, you have never heard a strength coach or powerlifter say when descending into the hole, pull yourself with your hip flexors?

I dont think Isaku knows any good powerlifters anyway so they probably dont know ****.

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 09:32 AM
Please define "actively pulling the weight down" within the context of the earth's gravitational field. I'm not trying to pick a fight.



Then allow me: you can't. No amount of "pulling" within a squat on this planet with a normal human mass can ever beat gravity. And be glad of that. If you ever pulled fast enough to out-compete the effects of gravity, you would burst through the gym floor and have to reimburse the owner for damages. Well, assuming you lived to tell the story. Which you probably wouldn't.

(Any bar-speed slower than a gravitational free-fall is being resisted.)

Please try www.skeptic.com for links to places where you can become active in improving science educations.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:35 AM
Then allow me: you can't. No amount of "pulling" within a squat on this planet with a normal human mass can ever beat gravity. And be glad of that. If you ever pulled fast enough to out-compete the effects of gravity, you would burst through the gym floor and have to reimburse the owner for damages. Well, assuming you lived to tell the story. Which you probably wouldn't.

(Any bar-speed slower than a gravitational free-fall is being resisted.)

Please try www.skeptic.com for links to places where you can become active in improving science educations.

When did I say you would be going faster than you would in a totally unresisted fall? Do you actually read or are you content with sniping away at things you imagine?

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 09:37 AM
You're killing me. Then define what the verb "to pull" means to you?

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 09:39 AM
Then allow me: you can't. No amount of "pulling" within a squat on this planet with a normal human mass can ever beat gravity. And be glad of that. If you ever pulled fast enough to out-compete the effects of gravity, you would burst through the gym floor and have to reimburse the owner for damages. Well, assuming you lived to tell the story. Which you probably wouldn't.

(Any bar-speed slower than a gravitational free-fall is being resisted.)

Please try www.skeptic.com for links to places where you can become active in improving science educations.

also what would you be pulling with? unless your feet are anchored to the ground there is no way you can "pull".


OP, if you truly squat as much as you claim...surely you have videos of such a feat.

Maybe if you posted a video of you accelerating 700 pounds downward faster than the rate at which gravity accelerates objects towards the earth, and then coming out of the hole with it....

maybe then we would all have a better idea of what you are talking about and could end all this petty bickering.

So please, show us what you mean and make us believers. Or if you dont have a 700 lb squat vid (I cant imagine why) you could just link to a youtube vid of ANY lifter doing what you are talking about. Surely you can find ONE.


When did I say you would be going faster than you would in a totally unresisted fall? Do you actually read or are you content with sniping away at things you imagine?

we inferred that you would be going faster than in an unresisted fall. Because any extra force pulling the bar downward would accelerate its fall.


SCIENCE.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:39 AM
You're killing me. Then define what the verb "to pull" means to you?

You are just being stupid. Bye :)

theKurp
02-13-2009, 09:43 AM
Ok, like most I confess to being a little, or maybe a lot confused by what the OP is after.

I'm a software engineer by profession so I've been taught to break down the larger picture into smaller pieces in an attempt to solve the whole - which I'll attempt to do here as well.

Gravity exerts a force all it's own. In order to speed up the rate of gravity then additional force has to be applied in a downward motion. So you've got two scenarios: the downward force at the rate of gravity or the downward force at the rate of gravity + additional force.

In terms of leg muscle involvement on a squat, the only way for gravity to supply the entire force of the downward movement of the weight is to bend the knees at a rate fast enough so that no resistance exists as the weights travel downward. To do otherwise is to control (slow down) the downward movement of weight at a rate slower than gravity by engaging muscles to create resistance.

Now, someone mentioned employing the lats during the squat movement. I would think that failure to tighten up your back and midsection prior to performing the squat is not only improper form, but a recipe for severe injury. Tightening up your back would include placing the bar on the lower part of your traps, bringing your hands in, and squeezing the shoulder blades together. All of this would naturally engage your lats.

As best as I can figure, the next step might be what the OP is getting at. At the point when the entire weight is resting on your traps and just before the beginning the squat movement, one might try to employ greater force to the downward movement of the weights by pulling down the weights. This wouldn't be accomplished by the legs, but with the arms and hands. In other words, applying pressure to the bar as if you were trying to bend the bar over your back. This would results in even further tightening of all the muslces (upper and lower) to create even more control and resistance during the entire squat movement.

Otherwise, I have no idea what the OP is getting at.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 09:51 AM
OP, if you truly squat as much as you claim...surely you have videos of such a feat.

Maybe if you posted a video of you accelerating 700 pounds downward faster than the rate at which gravity accelerates objects towards the earth, and then coming out of the hole with it....

maybe then we would all have a better idea of what you are talking about and could end all this petty bickering.

So please, show us what you mean and make us believers. Or if for some reason you dont have 700 lb squat vids (I cant imagine why) you could just link to a youtube vid of ANY lifter doing what you are talking about. Surely you can find ONE.



.




Crickets??

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:56 AM
the next step might be what the OP is getting at.

Actually it was a question to find out what different people did that a few people apparently took as an attack on their manhood. As far as pulling the weight down, flexxed is the only one who answered pull down with the hips. Now AFDestruction agrees but it seems some guys here decided to chase him off.

put5onyo
02-13-2009, 09:57 AM
You are just being stupid. Bye :)


Two questions for ya Enigma:

1. Are you really 47? I mean really? Doesn't seem that way.

2. Does it suck not being able to go on the adult rides at amusement parks?

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:58 AM
Crickets??

No. Just an astonishment that some people rely on video or pictures as the only means of proof. Tell you what, you can gladly come up to Traverse City and see with your own eyes.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 09:59 AM
Two questions for ya Enigma:

1. Are you really 47? I mean really? Doesn't seem that way.

2. Does it suck not being able to go on the adult rides at amusement parks?

Is it true that some people at 26 have no maturity?

Don't be hatin just because us short guys have a strength advantage.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:01 AM
EnigmaPower...


Did you see this? Are you going to address it? This whole issue could be put to rest if you would just post a vid.

Yes and I said just come on up to Traverse City if you don't believe me. And also, why is the issue what I can or can't squat now?

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 10:03 AM
No. Just an astonishment that some people rely on video or pictures as the only means of proof. Tell you what, you can gladly come up to Traverse City and see with your own eyes.

so you are astonished that I dont think the testimony of some internet stranger is enough to make me throw away everything physicists know about gravity?

That really astonishes you?


Surely you have videotaped a squat session in your time. If not, and this method is as prevelant in PLing as you claim, surely you can find one on youtube.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 10:03 AM
Yes and I said just come on up to Traverse City if you don't believe me. And also, why is the issue what I can or can't squat now?

it isnt. I would just like to see your form. And I figure anyone as strong as you would have taken a video at some point.

surely you can see how you posting a video is much easier than me traveling to michigan. Saying "come on up to Traverse City" is just a way of maintaining your position without actually having to back it up. Since you know that I wont come. A video would settle this whole thing easily.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:06 AM
so you are astonished that I dont think the testimony of some internet stranger is enough to make me throw away everything physicists know about gravity?

That really astonishes you?
Where did I say throw gravity away? It astonishes me that some people can't understand the simple concept of reading what is written and they have to add things in order to have something to attack.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:07 AM
it isnt. I would just like to see your form. And I figure anyone as strong as you would have taken a video at some point.

surely you can see how you posting a video is much easier than me traveling to michigan. Saying "come on up to Traverse City" is just a way of maintaining your position without actually having to back it up. Since you know that I wont come. A video would settle this whole thing easily.

What I wrote is the subject. Any more post questioning me for a video or why I do or don't have them will get you put on ignore. Agreed?

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 10:14 AM
I just assumed that you would have them as most lifters of your caliber do. If that isnt the case, thats fine, Im not calling you out on your lifts. But why cant you find one on youtube of this happening? Can you name any PLers we might have heard of that use this technique?



As for gravity, its simple, any downward force (i.e. what you described as "pulling the bar down through hip/knee flexion") applied to the bar will accelerate it downward. Furthermore, unless your feet are anchored to the ground, there is nothing to "pull" with. If you actively flexed your hips/knees faster than the rate at which gravity was pulling you to the ground, your feet would rise off the floor.

The other possibilities are that 1.) you are completely neutral under the bar, allowing it to travel downward at the gravitational constant. Or 2.) you are resisting the bar's downward motion.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:18 AM
Can you name any PLers we might have heard of that use this technique?

Yes I can but I won't. AFDestruction already mentioned one (wouldn't call him a powerlifter) who says it. Don't understand how you can claim to squat 500 lbs raw and say you never heard a strength coach or powerlifter say "use your hip flexors to pull yourself down into the hole" or even "the reason some people can't get to parallel is because of tight hip flexors."

theKurp
02-13-2009, 10:27 AM
An illustration might be in order. Let's say you had two bars stacked with 200 lbs suspended 5 feet off of the ground. One bar is suspended by two cables with quick-release clamps on each end of the bar. The other bar is held up on the shoulders of a weight-lifter.

The question becomes, can the weight-lifter descend into a squat faster than the fall of the bar suspended by cables if it were suddenly released?

The OP is claiming yes, if you employ the hip flexors to "pull" the weight down. I say, I'd bet a paycheck to the contrary.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 10:28 AM
Yes I can but I won't. AFDestruction already mentioned one (wouldn't call him a powerlifter) who says it. Don't understand how you can claim to squat 500 lbs raw and say you never heard a strength coach or powerlifter say "use your hip flexors to pull yourself down into the hole" or even "the reason some people can't get to parallel is because of tight hip flexors."

mental cues are just that. Mental cues.

When a coach says "spread the floor", do you think that means that the lifter actually causes the floor to seperate? Of course not.


tight hip flexors is a flexiblity issue and has absolutely zero relevance to your claim.


I squat well over 500.

You could simply cite a well-known lifter who squats this way. That would suffice. What Pavel T was describing IS NOT what you are describing.


Good job ignoring the entire part where I explained to you why this act is literally not possible.

here on planet earth, objects (that are not interfered with) accelerate towards the ground at a rate of 9.8 meters per second squared. I would LOVE for you to claim that the eccentric portion of your squat is faster than that.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:36 AM
mental cues are just that. Mental cues.

When a coach says "spread the floor", do you think that means that the lifter actually causes the floor to seperate? Of course not. They are telling you to actively keep your knees spread. If someone can't tell when something is being used as an illustration it is nobodys fault but their own.

tight hip flexors is a flexiblity issue and has absolutely zero relevance to your claim. Notice how you conveniently left off the other half of the quote.

I squat well over 500. Yes, and if you can do it without pulling yourself down with your hip flexors you are inhumanly strong and you are cheating yourself out of what you really can lift.

You could simply cite a well-known lifter who squats this way. That would suffice. What Pavel T was describing IS NOT what you are describing.
I could but as I said I won't. you have never heard a strength coach or a powerlifter say "pull yourself into the hole with your hip flexors"?

Good job ignoring the entire part where I explained to you why this act is literally not possible.
Didn't ignore it, I read it, I didn't respond to it because it's total nonsense and pseudoscience.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:38 AM
here on planet earth, objects (that are not interfered with) accelerate towards the ground at a rate of 9.8 meters per second squared. I would LOVE for you to claim that the eccentric portion of your squat is faster than that.

Where did I say that? Did you just join the "I don't read what is written, I assume what I want" club?

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 10:43 AM
When a coach says "spread the floor", do you think that means that the lifter actually causes the floor to separate?


Classic!

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 10:44 AM
They are telling you to actively keep your knees from spreading. If someone can't tell when something is being used as an illustration it is nobodys fault but their own.Notice how you conveniently left off the other half of the quote.Yes, and if you can do it without pulling yourself down with your hip flexors you are inhumanly strong and you are cheating yourself out of what you really can lift.I could but as I said I won't. you have never heard a strength coach or a powerlifter say "pull yourself into the hole with your hip flexors"?
Didn't ignore it, I read it, I didn't respond to it because it's total nonsense and pseudoscience.

-you acknowledge that mental cues arent necessarily meant to be taken literally but you refuse to interpret this particular one in a non-literal sense? It seems you are the one who cant tell when something is being used as an illustration.

-I guess I AM inhumanly strong... me and all the other thousands of people with 500+ squats who dont do this crap you are talking about.

-maybe I can try squatting your way, and after I die from it, I can meet Einstein and Newton in the afterlife and tell them how they are "pseudo-scientists."



So...Do you or do you not complete the eccentric portion of your squat at a rate faster than 9.8 meters per second squared?

It's a simple question.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Where did I say that? Did you just join the "I don't read what is written, I assume what I want" club?

if you were truly "pulling yourself downward", than you would have to drop faster than the rate at which objects accelerate towards the earth.

The only way your eccentric could be slower than this is if you were interfering with the downward acceleration of the bar, (i.e. resisting its descent).


Its physics dude. I'm sorry you cant grasp this. Here is some further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_gravity

(yes Wiki, I am lazy)

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 10:47 AM
No human is inhumanely strong.

If Louie Simmons ever sees this thread, he'll just shoot himself. ;-)

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:49 AM
-you acknowledge that mental cues arent necessarily meant to be taken literally but you refuse to interpret this particular one in a non-literal sense? It seems you are the one who cant tell when something is being used as an illustration.You are really bull-headed you know? It would be an illustration if I said something like pull with you hip flexors, like your trying to put your knee above your head. The illustration would be the part after the comma.

-I guess I AM inhumanly strong... me and all the other thousands of people with 500+ squats who dont do this crap you are talking about.There is another possibility. That you do use your hip flexors but do not think about it.

-maybe I can try squatting your way, and after I die from it, I can meet Einstein and Newton in the afterlife and tell them how they are "pseudo-scientists."That is just stupid.

So...Do you or do you not complete the eccentric portion of your squat at a rate faster than 9.8 meters per second squared?

It's a simple question.

Did I say I did? That is a simple question? Keep acting stupid and you know where you go. You have been warned.

Kiknskreem
02-13-2009, 10:52 AM
They are telling you to actively keep your knees from spreading....

Your knees are supposed to be spread in a squat...

isaku900
02-13-2009, 10:53 AM
Apparently not the ones you know. Tell me, you have never heard a strength coach or powerlifter say when descending into the hole, pull yourself with your hip flexors?

nope. everyone I've talked to (including 4 or 5 guys who squat 1000+, and Louie Simmons)
has disagreed with your silly statement.

in single ply you can dip into the hole after the suit stops you, but that's not pulling, that's a momentary relaxation of the hip flexors allowing you to get depth and then an explosive movement of the hips back under the bar to take advantage of the extra stretch reflex and the tightening of the suit to provide extra support.

so basically..the exact opposite of what you're asserting.

the only time I ever pull myself anywhere is when beginning a squat, I pull/push my hips back to load the suit and then push my knees out to descend. the rest of the time is staying patient with the weight to allow gravity to push it down while resisting it enough to stay tight and to be explosive when I hit depth and want to come back up.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 10:55 AM
nope. everyone I've talked to (including 4 or 5 guys who squat 1000+)
has disagreed with your silly statement.

Then I can say your lying but you are entitled to your opinion.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 10:57 AM
Did I say I did? That is a simple question? Keep acting stupid and you know where you go. You have been warned.

you didnt say it. But it is the only possibility. If you are applying external force to the bar, the bar will accelerate downward faster than 9.8 meters per second squared. There is no way around this. (short of somehow undoing the whole of gravitational theory as we know it, or maybe squatting in a different universe)

read this:


if you were truly "pulling yourself downward", than you would have to drop faster than the rate at which objects accelerate towards the earth.

The only way your eccentric could be slower than this is if you were interfering with the downward acceleration of the bar, (i.e. resisting its descent).


Its physics dude. I'm sorry you cant grasp this. Here is some further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_gravity

(yes Wiki, I am lazy)

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:00 AM
you didnt say it. But it is the only possibility.

No, it is the only possibility that you can think of. That is a far cry from saying it's the only possibility. I agree if you totally relax all your resisting muscles (which would require shutting off your entire CNS, then any added force will accelerate the bar faster but the CNS hasn't been shut off.

ETA - Now please cut out the incessant "putting words into my mouth" routine.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:05 AM
No, it is the only possibility that you can think of. That is a far cry from saying it's the only possibility. I agree if you totally relax all your resisting muscles (which would require shutting off your entire CNS, then any added force will accelerate the bar faster but the CNS hasn't been shut off.

ETA - Now please cut out the incessant "putting words into my mouth" routine.

so you're actively pulling downwards with your hips, yet you're not adding any force to the bar, while at the same time you aren't resisting the weight?

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 11:07 AM
there are 3 possibilities regarding the rate at which the bar travels towards the earth:

1.) the bar descends FASTER than 9.8 meters per second squared. This scenario requires external force applied to the bar in a downward motion.

2.) the bar descends at EXACTLY 9.8 meters per second squared. This would mean the bar is in a complete free fall, or the lifter is applying no pressure in either direction to the bar.

3.) the bar descends SLOWER than 9.8 meters per second squared. This would mean the lifter is actively resisting the bar's descent.


Which of these scenarios describes the eccentric portion of your squat? It DOES have to be one of them. There are no other possibilites. Not in this universe.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:14 AM
so you're actively pulling downwards with your hips, yet you're not adding any force to the bar, while at the same time you aren't resisting the weight?

Reading is fundamental. Where did I say I wasn't resisting the weight? You can stop with putting words into my mouth or you go on ignore, fair enough?

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:15 AM
there are 3 possibilities regarding the rate at which the bar travels towards the earth:

1.) the bar descends FASTER than 9.8 meters per second squared. This scenario requires external force applied to the bar in a downward motion.

2.) the bar descends at EXACTLY 9.8 meters per second squared. This would mean the bar is in a complete free fall, or the lifter is applying no pressure in either direction to the bar.

3.) the bar descends SLOWER than 9.8 meters per second squared. This would mean the lifter is actively resisting the bar's descent.


Which of these scenarios describes the eccentric portion of your squat? It DOES have to be one of them. There are no other possibilites. Not in this universe.

Show me where I said either 1 or 2. Fact is you bring up this idiocy once more you are going on ignore. Last warning.

Ascitiesburn96
02-13-2009, 11:17 AM
Yes...but how do you descend? Do you use muscle to pull you down or do you let gravity pull you while controlling your descent with muscle.

Focus your weight on your heels and just controll the weight ont he way down, then explode from your heals on the way up.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:17 AM
Reading is fundamental. Where did I say I wasn't resisting the weight? You can stop with putting words into my mouth or you go on ignore, fair enough?

ok

please ignore me.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 11:18 AM
Reading is fundamental. Where did I say I wasn't resisting the weight? You can stop with putting words into my mouth or you go on ignore, fair enough?

if you are resisting the weight's descent, you are not actively pulling it down. It is one or the other. You cant have it both ways. Read my above post. I am glad that you have a mental cue that works for you, but that is all it is.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:20 AM
if you are resisting the weight's descent, you are not actively pulling it down. It is one or the other. You cant have it both ways. Read my above post. I am glad that you have a mental cue that works for you, but that is all it is.

You never burnt rubber or drove with your parking brake on? Why is this such a threat that you resort to putting words in my mouth?

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:22 AM
"to answer your question, no. I don't see how that would be beneficial to a squat, unless your gear is so tight that you can't get depth."

-Mark Bell.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 11:23 AM
Show me where I said either 1 or 2. Fact is you bring up this idiocy once more you are going on ignore. Last warning.

you didnt say that, I never said you did. I needed you to describe the eccentric portion of your squat so I could properly destroy your nonsensical argument.

If you are saying it is option 3 that describes your eccentric, then you are not "using muscle to pull yourself down" as you originally claimed.

You cant simultaneously resist the bar's descent AND pull it downward. The two are opposite.

I am done being trolled, your arguments have been sufficiently dismantled.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:25 AM
"to answer your question, no. I don't see how that would be beneficial to a squat, unless your gear is so tight that you can't get depth."

-Mark Bell.

Am I speaking of a squat suit? Must be an assume thing disease going round...

I will ask you the same thing I asked cj, why is it so important to you that I be wrong that you put words in my mouth so you can attack them?

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:26 AM
you didnt say that, I never said you did. I needed you to describe the eccentric portion of your squat so I could properly destroy your nonsensical argument.

If you are saying it is option 3 that describes your eccentric, then you are not "using muscle to pull yourself down" as you originally claimed.

You cant simultaneously resist the bar's descent AND pull it downward. The two are opposite.

I am done being trolled, your arguments have been sufficiently dismantled.
You can't? Either you have no control over your muscles or you really don't understand the human body.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 11:26 AM
Reading is fundamental. Where did I say I wasn't resisting the weight? You can stop with putting words into my mouth or you go on ignore, fair enough?

^ this statement leads me to believe that you ARE resisting the weight. (unless you arent saying anything at all)


Which lies in direct contradiction to what you are saying here:


use muscle to descend (not just as brakes)

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:29 AM
^ this statement leads me to believe that you ARE resisting the weight. (unless you arent saying anything at all)


Which lies in direct contradiction to what you are saying here:

How is that a contradiction? It says the muscle is not only used as a brake to control the descent. Are you seriously telling me the human musculature and CNS is incapable of two differing actions with two (or more) muscles at the same time?

ETA - You never burnt rubber or drove with your parking brake on? Why is this such a threat that you resort to putting words in my mouth?

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 11:30 AM
You can't? Either you have no control over your muscles or you really don't understand the human body.

it is you who doesnt understand.


you dont understand the laws that govern the universe.


The answer is no. You cannot do both simultaneously. If your descent is slower than 9.8 meters per second squared, it is gravity that is causing the bar to move downward and your body is exerting upward pressure to slow it's descent. Which means that you are NOT pulling it down.


goodbye

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Am I speaking of a squat suit? Must be an assume thing disease going round...

I will ask you the same thing I asked cj, why is it so important to you that I be wrong that you put words in my mouth so you can attack them?



the only reason Mark could see for pulling down with your hips or anything is if you are wearing gear and it is too tight for you to get depth normally, i.e. letting gravity bring you down and resisting it just enough to keep your form.

heh, irony that time you didn't comprehend what was written.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:33 AM
it is you who doesnt understand.


you dont understand the laws that govern the universe.


The answer is no. You cannot do both simultaneously. If your descent is slower than 9.8 meters per second squared, it is gravity that is causing the bar to move downward and your body is exerting upward pressure to slow it's descent. Which means that you are NOT pulling it down.

ETA - You never burnt rubber or drove with your parking brake on? Why is this such a threat that you resort to putting words in my mouth?


goodbye

Ok...I don't understand. If it floats your boat to hear that ok but i am pretty sure most people understand you don't understand anatomy.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:34 AM
the only reason Mark could see for pulling down with your hips or anything is if you are wearing gear and it is too tight for you to get depth normally, i.e. letting gravity bring you down and resisting it just enough to keep your form.

heh, irony that time you didn't comprehend what was written.

So you can pull when wearing a suit but you can't when not wearing one? What stops you in the second case?

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:35 AM
So you can pull when wearing a suit but you can't when not wearing one? What stops you in the second case?


....the suit stops you...that's ...what they do...

but you only would need to pull if you're impatient and you're wearing gear that's waaay too tight.

it also tends to break your form down enough that you usually miss the lift.

heatwave13
02-13-2009, 11:36 AM
It looks like we won't be getting a final answer to all this after all. As for me, after all these years of squatting and having a good learning foundation, my body is pretty much on autopilot......

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 11:39 AM
It looks like we won't be getting a final answer to all this after all. As for me, after all these years of squatting and having a good learning foundation, my body is pretty much on autopilot......
Now that I can understand as are the actions of most experienced lifters. Not everybody concerns themselves with the actual mechanics of a lift but some people think it is a good idea to put words in the mouth of anyone that does so they can attack him.

Chokenpuke
02-13-2009, 11:40 AM
First off, OP, you have caused the downward spiral of this thread without question. Kiknskreem's disagreement with you was pretty civil and understandable. You could have done a much better job of formatting the question.

That said, the concept you are talking about is what Pavel T refers to as "successive induction". The basic premise is that you activate or recruit more motor neurons by pre-contracting your antagonist muscles. That is not the same as literally "pulling" throughout the execution of the lift.

So, I would say that your lack of understanding of the question you were asking is what has lead to your current state of backed-in-a-corner-calling-out-everyone-who-questions-you-to-come-to-traverse-city-and-I'll-show-you-a-thing-or-two nonsense.

I'll leave you to your silly bull****.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 12:00 PM
Ok...I don't understand. If it floats your boat to hear that ok but i am pretty sure most people understand you don't understand anatomy.




yep, "most people understand" that alright. I have received 7 reps so far from the various verbal beat-downs I have administered to you.

Everyone thinks you are an idiot, nobody agrees with you.

at best, your question was improperly phrased.

strong understanding a squat suit. Seriously, do you even lift weights?

you lose, you are a failure. I have to go to the gym now, maybe I will do some 725 pound shrugs with a DO grip while I am there.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 12:00 PM
First off, OP, you have caused the downward spiral of this thread without question. Kiknskreem's disagreement with you was pretty civil and understandable. You could have done a much better job of formatting the question.Which was said by myself way back on page 1 of this thread. Still, that did not require any of the recent posters to put words in my mouth yet it's exactly what they did.

That said, the concept you are talking about is what Pavel T refers to as "successive induction". The basic premise is that you activate or recruit more motor neurons by pre-contracting your antagonist muscles. That is not the same as literally "pulling" throughout the execution of the lift.I only said pull during the descent. See, this is a perfect example of someone reading more than what was said.

So, I would say that your lack of understanding of the question you were asking is what has lead to your current state of backed-in-a-corner-calling-out-everyone-who-questions-you-to-come-to-traverse-city-and-I'll-show-you-a-thing-or-two nonsense.

I'll leave you to your silly bull****.

So my asking a question as to how other lifters perform squats was because I misunderstood a concept from Pavel although I wasn't referring to him? And you call that bull****???

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 12:02 PM
yep, "most people understand" that alright. I have received 7 reps so far from the various verbal beat-downs I have administered to you.

Everyone thinks you are an idiot, nobody agrees with you.

at best, your question was improperly phrased.

strong understanding a squat suit. Seriously, do you even lift weights?

you lose, you are a failure. I have to go to the gym now, maybe I will do some 725 pound shrugs with a DO grip while I am there.

Before you go on ignore for being an idiot, if you really want to know if or what i lift, come up to Traverse City. If you don't, it just means that you are asking because you think it makes you look better. Normal people know better.

byates5637
02-13-2009, 12:07 PM
OP needs to take middle school physics.

The question makes no sense at all.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 12:09 PM
Before you go on ignore for being an idiot, if you really want to know if or what i lift, come up to Traverse City. If you don't, it just means that you are asking because you think it makes you look better. Normal people know better.

I dont want to know what you lift. I dont care. I dont think you lift **** to be honest, but it really doesnt matter.

It is laughable that you think inviting people to your town gives you some credibility. As if anyone is gonna be like "yeah dude I'm on the way, see you in 12 hours".

You havent posted a vid of yourself squatting with this technique, or a vid of anyone else squatting this way, nor have you managed to even NAME one lifter who does this.

you have a mental cue. good for you. stop trying to make it more than what it is.

The evidence stands for itself, you cant defy physics. You are either delusional or you simply lack the verbal skills necessary to communicate effectively.

BTW if you feel an earthquake in an hour or so, that is because I am going to squat and I plan on "spreading the floor".

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 12:11 PM
OP needs to take middle school physics.

The question makes no sense at all.

Yup, those are more advanced than what John Wheeler taught...

byates5637
02-13-2009, 12:13 PM
The answer is no. You cannot do both simultaneously. If your descent is slower than 9.8 meters per second squared, it is gravity that is causing the bar to move downward and your body is exerting upward pressure to slow it's descent. Which means that you are NOT pulling it down.




You obviously understand physics and the OP is clueless, but I think you might be missing what the OP is trying to say.

The human body can exert a force on an object in two different directions. You can be pulling down on the bar with your arms while pushing up with your shoulders. Of course the sum of the forces has to be in one direction, like you said.

I think OP is confused about the summation of forces.

noahfor
02-13-2009, 12:21 PM
I can hold an object and pull with one hand, push with the other, and cause no acceleration. Am I pulling, pushing, neither, or both? What if I do cause an acceleration?

byates5637
02-13-2009, 12:25 PM
I can hold an object and pull with one hand, push with the other, and cause no acceleration. Am I pulling, pushing, neither, or both?

You're pulling and pushing, as you just said.


what if I do cause an acceleration?

Well then, you caused an acceleration. ....

???

Chokenpuke
02-13-2009, 12:26 PM
Again and for the last time, I never said actively pulling was needed. I suggest you either read what I actually wrote or stop your stupidity of trying to put words in my mouth. Fact is without actively pulling with your muscles you are cheating yourself out of alot of strength. If that is what you prefer, do it.

???

Which was said by myself way back on page 1 of this thread. Still, that did not require any of the recent posters to put words in my mouth yet it's exactly what they did.I only said pull during the descent. See, this is a perfect example of someone reading more than what was said.

Nope, it was said.(well written anyway.)



So my asking a question as to how other lifters perform squats was because I misunderstood a concept from Pavel although I wasn't referring to him? And you call that bull****???

Nope, I call bull**** on you getting pissed when you couldn't intelligently defend yourself.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 12:29 PM
???


Read what was being replied to before trying to spout off nonsense. Is that too much to ask?

isaku900
02-13-2009, 12:30 PM
Before you go on ignore for being an idiot, if you really want to know if or what i lift, come up to Traverse City. If you don't, it just means that you are asking because you think it makes you look better. Normal people know better.

this is the constant cry of the fake lifter.

if people want to know what i lift i point to my meet video.

the burden of proof is on the claimant, not on the people questioning your lifts.

noahfor
02-13-2009, 12:36 PM
You're pulling and pushing, as you just said.



Well then, you caused an acceleration. ....

???

Right. So then, it is possible to pull something without causing an acceleration.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 12:38 PM
this is the constant cry of the fake lifter.

if people want to know what i lift i point to my meet video.

the burden of proof is on the claimant, not on the people questioning your lifts.

What I can or can't lift is not the topic of the thread. Do you have a mental problem that makes you think it is?

theKurp
02-13-2009, 12:40 PM
Right. So then, it is possible to pull something without causing an acceleration.


Uh, no. The very act of pushing or pulling creates acceleration. Otherwise it's called stability.

noahfor
02-13-2009, 12:43 PM
Uh, no. The very act of pushing or pulling creates acceleration. Otherwise it's called stability.

So, in a tug of war, in which there is a standstill, neither side is pulling?

isaku900
02-13-2009, 12:45 PM
What I can or can't lift is not the topic of the thread. Do you have a mental problem that makes you think it is?

thankfully on an open discussion forum such as this free form discussions can change the thrust of a thread from the original (and answered) topic to other relevant and related topics, this is a natural migration once the OP has been answered sufficiently.

on topic, if you're lifting raw pulling the bar down just makes it that much harder to stop and reverse the weight, making it even harder to complete the lift.

this is not beneficial.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 12:46 PM
So, in a tug of war, in which there is a standstill, neither side is pulling?

...i hope you're being facetious...

noahfor
02-13-2009, 12:48 PM
...i hope you're being facetious...

No, that's what theKurp's statement would have me believe.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 12:51 PM
No, that's what theKurp's statement would have me believe.

both are trying to accelerate, in opposite directions that are canceling eachother out, the system reaches equilibrium.

noahfor
02-13-2009, 12:55 PM
both are trying to accelerate, in opposite directions that are canceling eachother out, the system reaches equilibrium.

And you would call that "trying to accelerate" "pulling," regardless of whether or not there is an acceleration or in what direction that acceleration is?

isaku900
02-13-2009, 12:59 PM
And you would call that "trying to accelerate" "pulling," regardless of whether or not there is an acceleration or in what direction that acceleration is?

well acceleration is actually a specific term...I would rather call it exerting a force on the rope.

i know where you're going with this too...but here's the thing.

the opposing forces in a squat are gravity and your muscles, to descend you allow gravity's force to overcome your resistance, to stop at depth you bring them to equal and to come back up you increase the force your muscles are exerting to overcome gravity enough for you to stand back up.

noahfor
02-13-2009, 01:20 PM
I wasn't going anywhere in regard to the actual topic of the thread. I was just trying to illustrate that you can pull on something without causing an acceleration, which some posts would have me believe is not the case. That's all. I don't know enough about physiology to say whether one can actively contract the hip flexors when the hip would flex anyway because of gravity.

On the other hand, if I hold my arm up like I'm doing a biceps pose, I can let my arm fall naturally into extension, but I can also extend my arm while my triceps are contracting. I can feel that they are contracting, and so, they must be exerting some force on the joint, which one could call a pull. There's a definite difference between the two. So, it does seem like there could be a difference in hip flexor contraction between different squats, even if there is no difference in acceleration, and that you could refer to technique of squatting in which the hip flexors are contracting as pulling yourself into the squat. I'm not saying it would be of any benefit. I guess I was going somewhere.

Luke Whippo
02-13-2009, 01:21 PM
Can't really explain it. All I can say is if you are not dropping under gravity's power you must be using a muscle or muscles in order to do so.



as you decent (breaking the knees) you use the hip flexors (your butt is leader) to pull yourself back to lockout, the same action is taking place when you decent as well. (so I would say you do pull yourself down)

gravity does not drop you into a decent, even if you relax your muscles, your hip flexors still take you down, if they didn't you would loose balance, even trying it hurts the knees.

......and I am an idiot for even trying.

Dave76
02-13-2009, 01:25 PM
I want the last 10 minutes of my life back. I can't believe I read this thread.

I really can't believe I bothered posting in it.

lifterg
02-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Just trying to understand the OP regarding the hip flexor thing.

I don't understand how actually flexing the opposing muscle would make a stronger contraction. There are reflex arcs called reciprocal innervation, they inhibit contractions in antagonist muscle groups. Inhibiting the contraction of a muscle lifting doesn't seem beneficial. Where am I missing what you are trying to say?

I think Pavel's idea is out of place here because Kbells are ballistic and squats aren't. The positioning aspects are different.

Contracting the hip flexors would cause a pelvic tilt resulting in a rounded back. A bad position for turning around in the bottom of a squat.

BTW- I was a strength coach at Iowa and have never heard anyone use "hip flexors" as a coaching cue. The only cue regarding hips I recall is "hips back"

Rochq
02-13-2009, 01:46 PM
Hey, Joaquin! Is that you?

boathead
02-13-2009, 01:50 PM
just got home from work. good times, good times! enigma, every time i turn around you are in a scrape.:)

anyway, i am trying to picture this pulling. would anyone equate it to a bicycle? when one leg is pushing down, the other, if there are pedal straps, can be pulling up to assist the other?

is that what we are talking about sort of? if something like this can occur in a squat?

Chokenpuke
02-13-2009, 02:22 PM
Just trying to understand the OP regarding the hip flexor thing.

I don't understand how actually flexing the opposing muscle would make a stronger contraction. There are reflex arcs called reciprocal innervation, they inhibit contractions in antagonist muscle groups. Inhibiting the contraction of a muscle lifting doesn't seem beneficial. Where am I missing what you are trying to say?

I think Pavel's idea is out of place here because Kbells are ballistic and squats aren't. The positioning aspects are different.

Contracting the hip flexors would cause a pelvic tilt resulting in a rounded back. A bad position for turning around in the bottom of a squat.

BTW- I was a strength coach at Iowa and have never heard anyone use "hip flexors" as a coaching cue. The only cue regarding hips I recall is "hips back"

What Pavel was referring to is exactly what you mention, reciprocal innervation. As I understand it, it is essentially pre-contracting the antagonist muscle to reduce the resistance it provides the agonist.

So to use the OP's example of a bicep curl, you would purposely contract the triceps just before initiating the curl to inhibit it's tendency to contract or resist the bicep. Increase the relaxation, I suppose.


I don't see how you would do this in a squat. It may well be possible, but it is not what I would consider "pulling the weight down".


Pavel is best known for kbells, but has a great deal of experience in weight training in general.

As for the bicycle analogy, no. Obviously both legs are traveling in the same direction in a squat.

Karl_Hungus
02-13-2009, 02:29 PM
What Pavel was referring to is exactly what you mention, reciprocal innervation. As I understand it, it is essentially pre-contracting the antagonist muscle to reduce the resistance it provides the agonist.

So to use the OP's example of a bicep curl, you would purposely contract the triceps just before initiating the curl to inhibit it's tendency to contract or resist the bicep. Increase the relaxation, I suppose.


I don't see how you would do this in a squat. It may well be possible, but it is not what I would consider "pulling the weight down".


What you are saying makes sense, but it seems to be the opposite of what the OP is saying. Inhibiting the antagonist would reduce any "pulling" of the weight down (opposite of what OP is saying). Activating the antagonists would only make the squat harder .... because now you are not only resisting gravity, but the pull of your antagonistic muscles as well. Doesn't make any sense.

Under heavy loads, the body naturally inhibits the antagonists anyway, so, the idea of pulling the weight down with big weights makes even less sense....and is probably physically impossible.

Chokenpuke
02-13-2009, 02:32 PM
What you are saying makes sense, but it seems to be the opposite of what the OP is saying. Inhibiting the antagonist would reduce any "pulling" of the weight down (opposite of what OP is saying). Activating the antagonists would only make the squat harder .... because now you are not only resisting gravity, but the pull of your antagonistic muscles as well. Doesn't make any sense.

Under heavy loads, the body naturally inhibits the antagonists anyway, so, the idea of pulling the weight down with big weights makes even less sense....and is probably physically impossible.

I agree with this^^in it's entirety.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 03:09 PM
Can't really explain it. All I can say is if you are not dropping under gravity's power you must be using a muscle or muscles in order to do so. Guess the closest I can come to illustrating it would be in a curl. When you lower the weight you can let gravity pull down or you can flex your tricep pushing the weight down.

except in a curl you have your hands wrapped around the bar so you can actually pull it down. Imagine if you weren't gripping the bar, and you just had your hands flat, you couldn't pull down on it at all.

Its the same thing in a squat. Your feet cant grip the ground, so you cant pull down.

I cant believe i am still posting in this thread.

SuperHappyFun
02-13-2009, 03:09 PM
Just got back from my workout where I was man enough to say to the bar prior to my squats: "OK bar, I know there is gravity in the room, but could you, once, just this once, let ME pull the weight down all by my lonesome" And gravity replied: "I have a better idea. I am powerful, but not SO powerful that I can cease to function for just you, so might I suggest that you resist the bar on the way down and we'll call it even?"

Thus the bargain was struck. That gravity is a nice chap. :-)

Chokenpuke
02-13-2009, 03:20 PM
I cant believe i am still posting in this thread.

I can't believe you are still posting in this thread.

lifterg
02-13-2009, 03:27 PM
Just got back from my workout where I was man enough to say to the bar prior to my squats: "OK bar, I know there is gravity in the room, but could you, once, just this once, let ME pull the weight down all by my lonesome" And gravity replied: "I have a better idea. I am powerful, but not SO powerful that I can cease to function for just you, so might I suggest that you resist the bar on the way down and we'll call it even?"

Thus the bargain was struck. That gravity is a nice chap. :-)


I always thought gravity was a showoff and a bit of a prick. He always made it a point for me to know he could move more weight down than I can up. After all these years it still pisses me off.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 03:39 PM
as you decent (breaking the knees) you use the hip flexors (your butt is leader) to pull yourself back to lockout, the same action is taking place when you decent as well. (so I would say you do pull yourself down)

gravity does not drop you into a decent, even if you relax your muscles, your hip flexors still take you down, if they didn't you would loose balance, even trying it hurts the knees.

......and I am an idiot for even trying.

Thank you.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 03:41 PM
Just trying to understand the OP regarding the hip flexor thing.

I don't understand how actually flexing the opposing muscle would make a stronger contraction. There are reflex arcs called reciprocal innervation, they inhibit contractions in antagonist muscle groups. Inhibiting the contraction of a muscle lifting doesn't seem beneficial. Where am I missing what you are trying to say?

I think Pavel's idea is out of place here because Kbells are ballistic and squats aren't. The positioning aspects are different.

Contracting the hip flexors would cause a pelvic tilt resulting in a rounded back. A bad position for turning around in the bottom of a squat.

BTW- I was a strength coach at Iowa and have never heard anyone use "hip flexors" as a coaching cue. The only cue regarding hips I recall is "hips back"
I neither brought up nor did I use Pavel. Nor did I call this a cue.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 03:42 PM
just got home from work. good times, good times! enigma, every time i turn around you are in a scrape.:)

anyway, i am trying to picture this pulling. would anyone equate it to a bicycle? when one leg is pushing down, the other, if there are pedal straps, can be pulling up to assist the other?

is that what we are talking about sort of? if something like this can occur in a squat?

Not my fault the young crowd took my question as an insult to their manhood.

ETA - Sort of but according to a few morons, your illustration would be an impossibility.

EnigmaPower
02-13-2009, 03:45 PM
What you are saying makes sense, but it seems to be the opposite of what the OP is saying. Inhibiting the antagonist would reduce any "pulling" of the weight down (opposite of what OP is saying). Activating the antagonists would only make the squat harder .... because now you are not only resisting gravity, but the pull of your antagonistic muscles as well. Doesn't make any sense.

Under heavy loads, the body naturally inhibits the antagonists anyway, so, the idea of pulling the weight down with big weights makes even less sense....and is probably physically impossible.

Reread all my posts. He has the right idea.

cjdelaney
02-13-2009, 03:54 PM
Not my fault the young crowd took my question as an insult to their manhood.

ETA - Sort of but according to a few morons, your illustration would be an impossibility.

his illustration would not be an impossibility because he mentioned that he is talking about the kind of bike with hooks on the pedals that you can pull against.

In a squat, there are no such hooks, so what is it that you are pulling against?

Chokenpuke
02-13-2009, 04:17 PM
as you decent (breaking the knees) you use the hip flexors (your butt is leader) to pull yourself back to lockout, the same action is taking place when you decent as well. (so I would say you do pull yourself down)

gravity does not drop you into a decent, even if you relax your muscles, your hip flexors still take you down, if they didn't you would loose balance, even trying it hurts the knees.

......and I am an idiot for even trying.

I suspect you are confusing the hip flexors for the hip extensors. (so I would still maintain you do not pull yourself down)


Not my fault the young crowd took my question as an insult to their manhood.

ETA - Sort of but according to a few morons, your illustration would be an impossibility.

You gonna be ok Enigma? You seem hurt. It's OK to get confused. Some of this stuff is hard.

/condescencion

SP1966
02-13-2009, 04:30 PM
This thread has some serious legs... must be from pulling all that weight down! :rolleyes:

Dave76
02-13-2009, 04:34 PM
I don't know about the rest of you guys but when I do a push-up, I always do a pull-down first. I get a much better workout when I pull my chest to the floor.

SP1966
02-13-2009, 04:39 PM
I don't know about the rest of you guys but when I do a push-up, I always do a pull-down first. I get a much better workout when I pull my chest to the floor.
I don't mean to get technical here, but you would in fact be pulling the earth to your chest in that case! I am impressed!! :D

theKurp
02-13-2009, 04:45 PM
I don't mean to get technical here, but you would in fact be pulling the earth to your chest in that case! I am impressed!! :D

NO, NO, NO!! Don't you see? He is pulling with his front deltoids. :-)

Metal Jerk
02-13-2009, 06:24 PM
I leg pressed today, I tried this new technique and I pulled the sled down with my super powers, felt a lot tighter.

plmb1
02-13-2009, 09:23 PM
this is "over thinking" the squat to say the least........LOL.

Stenn
02-13-2009, 10:18 PM
I want the last 10 minutes of my life back. I can't believe I read this thread.

I really can't believe I bothered posting in it.

x2

I thought I'd never meet a squat thread I didn't like, but this has to be the stupidest thread I've ever read. The funny thing is, SuperHappyFun is making the most sense in spite of his relative inexperience with squatting.

Ed_Nauseum
02-13-2009, 11:18 PM
Just got back from my workout where I was man enough to say to the bar prior to my squats: "OK bar, I know there is gravity in the room, but could you, once, just this once, let ME pull the weight down all by my lonesome" And gravity replied: "I have a better idea. I am powerful, but not SO powerful that I can cease to function for just you, so might I suggest that you resist the bar on the way down and we'll call it even?"

Thus the bargain was struck. That gravity is a nice chap. :-)

This could be the first step to unify gravity into the "Theory of Everything"? GJDM


http://www.geocities.com/Omegaman_UK/zoo/ZOO4-5.jpg

Amanda76
02-16-2009, 04:02 PM
I want the last 10 minutes of my life back. I can't believe I read this thread.

I really can't believe I bothered posting in it.

THIS is what you're doing when you aren't home with me?! I never--EVER--see you! WTF, Dave. I thought we had something special. :mad:

SP1966
02-16-2009, 04:28 PM
THIS is what you're doing when you aren't home with me?! I never--EVER--see you! WTF, Dave. I thought we had something special. :mad:
Damn Dave WTF? Like they say "Show me a man who won't give it to his woman and I'll show you a man who will"!! LOL ;)

Dave76
02-16-2009, 04:30 PM
THIS is what you're doing when you aren't home with me?! I never--EVER--see you! WTF, Dave. I thought we had something special. :mad:

lol... I got a lot of explaining to do.

The 76 behind my name is because of the year I graduated from college. Where'd your last name come from?

Amanda76
02-16-2009, 09:03 PM
lol... I got a lot of explaining to do.

The 76 behind my name is because of the year I graduated from college. Where'd your last name come from?

And now you're going to act like we never met? Unbelievable! Where do wives normally get their last names? Seriously. Just because I'm young enough to be your daughter--it doesn't mean you can toss me aside like this...


Damn Dave WTF? Like they say "Show me a man who won't give it to his woman and I'll show you a man who will"!! LOL ;)

I'm sure there's someone out there who will appreciate me. :(

strongforgood
02-18-2009, 07:33 AM
THIS is what you're doing when you aren't home with me?! I never--EVER--see you! WTF, Dave. I thought we had something special. :mad:


lol... I got a lot of explaining to do.

The 76 behind my name is because of the year I graduated from college. Where'd your last name come from?


And now you're going to act like we never met? Unbelievable! Where do wives normally get their last names? Seriously. Just because I'm young enough to be your daughter--it doesn't mean you can toss me aside like this...



I'm sure there's someone out there who will appreciate me. :(

And here I was about to change my name to Sandra76...

Amanda76
02-18-2009, 08:31 AM
And here I was about to change my name to Sandra76...

Don't do it! He'll break your heart...
















...and I'll break your face! :D

Dave76
02-18-2009, 09:15 AM
And here I was about to change my name to Sandra76...


Don't do it! He'll break your heart...


lol... I'm sure none of this makes sense to anyone who doesn't know Lencho.

flexxed
02-18-2009, 09:23 AM
Thanks for the advice but I know how to squat. I am just curious as to how others descend into the hole or into an ATG squat. You say use your hips on the way down. Does that mean you are using your hip flexors to pull yourself down?


pretty much, i focus on my hip area, (hip flexors) to lower the weight although my quads are still somewhat engaged, on the way up i use mostly quad of course, that way feels the best to me

strongforgood
02-18-2009, 09:46 AM
lol... I'm sure none of this makes sense to anyone who doesn't know Lencho.

Lencho???? Who is she??????

Stenn
02-18-2009, 10:09 AM
lol... I'm sure none of this makes sense to anyone who doesn't know Lencho.

You're right, but it makes for entertaining reading anyway and is better than reading about how to ruin a perfectly good squat.

Amanda76
02-18-2009, 10:15 AM
Lencho???? Who is she??????

ANOTHER woman?! Everything is starting to make sense to me now...

Why Dave? Why?

EnigmaPower
02-27-2009, 09:27 AM
To those of you asking for some type of "research" about this. From Mel Siff's writing on accelerated powermetrics...


Actively accelerated eccentrics: Here you rely soley on your muscles. Instead of resisting the action of gravity to decelerate the bar or keep it moving down at approximately constant speed or allowing it to drop almost freely under gravitational acceleration during the eccentric phase, you deliberately pull the bar downwards as fast as you can and stop the downward motion before you reach the end of the movement. For safety reasons, do not allow the accelerated load to force you into your extreme end position of joint action. Unlike the form of accelerated eccentrics offered by elastic bands, the force added to gravitational force ceases if one stops voluntarily accelerating the bar.

and...


Actively accelerated ballistics: Here you again rely soley on your muscles. Instead of lowering the bar slowly or allowing it to drop under gravitational acceleration, deliberately pull the bar downwards as fast as you can, stop the downward motion at a suitable point before the end of the movement and as rapidly as you can, try to accelerate the bar upwards into a powerful concentric movement

Now for all you idiots who negged me for lying and spreading false information, you now know where you can stick it.

DaddyR
02-27-2009, 09:51 AM
At 9.8 meters per second per second, the acceleration due to gravity is plenty fast for me, thank you very much. In fact, I generally descend to the bottom of my squats even more slowly than that.

EnigmaPower
02-27-2009, 09:53 AM
At 9.8 meters per second per second, the acceleration due to gravity is plenty fast for me, thank you very much. In fact, I generally descend to the bottom of my squats even more slowly than that.

Are you claiming that Mel Siff is wrong? BTW, this is talking about a specific type of supramaximal training. Nobody, least of all Dr. Siff, says it should be done all the time.

Arlecchino
02-27-2009, 10:44 AM
Lencho???? Who is she??????


ANOTHER woman?! Everything is starting to make sense to me now...

Why Dave? Why?

Lencho is (allegedly) male.

:)

strongforgood
02-27-2009, 10:49 AM
Lencho is (allegedly) male.

:)

Aha. The plot thickens.