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bigbeezy
02-11-2009, 07:18 PM
here is the deal guys, never been a big bench presser, always struggled with it.

about 6 months ago was the strongest i have been at bench press, got 295x4, 315x3, good form, little bounce off the chest.

don't know what has happened in the last 6 months. strength is slowly decreasing, i haven't been following a program, and was working out by myself so didn't have a spotter, now i am good for 275x3

I only work chest once a week by itself, i need a program that is going to boost my bench press strength up. I am doing fine on my deadlift and squat which is what i am worried about most, but gotta get the bench up.

I am not looking for a program where i do chest twice a week, cause like i said, leg day and back day are more important my routine looks like this

Mon:Legs
Tues:Chest
Wed:Cardio
Thur:Back/shoulders
Fri: Off
Sat:Arms
Sun:Off

any help/advice is greatly appreciated

Chokenpuke
02-11-2009, 07:23 PM
I am not looking for a program where i do chest twice a week, cause like i said, leg day and back day are more important my routine looks like this



...

bigbeezy
02-11-2009, 07:28 PM
just lookin for a solid routine to hit once a week

Kiknskreem
02-11-2009, 07:41 PM
Stop having a "chest" day.

cjdelaney
02-11-2009, 07:42 PM
just lookin for a solid routine to hit once a week

its hard to give you advice b/c you are dead set on continuing your bodybuilding split.

If you are seriously interested in getting bigger, and stronger in ALL your lifts, then we might have something for you.

edit:



Sat:Arms

isaku900
02-11-2009, 07:49 PM
Read anything and everything by Charles Poliquin and/or anything on the Bulgarian Powerburst System, errrr oh and German Volume Training...One of the 3 should help you along.

all of these things will not make you stronger.

isaku900
02-11-2009, 08:01 PM
Reading won't give you strength, but it will make you more knowledgeable.Poliquins theories, Volume training and Bulgarian Splits most definitely will make you stronger. Not sure what you base your knowledge of these systems off of, but yeah. The Bulgarians and German's know a little something about moving weights...Which in the real world requires strength.

I'll give you a headstart. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm

L


O


L

cjdelaney
02-11-2009, 08:02 PM
L


O


L

what part of GERMAN do you not understand?

isaku900
02-11-2009, 08:06 PM
what part of GERMAN do you not understand?

hahaha

recommending any bodybuilding routine to build maximal strength in a single lift is the epitome of stupidity.

isaku900
02-11-2009, 08:13 PM
Hahahahaha, just as I suspected. You haven't a clue. Now there's a surprise.

Anyways. Have you mastered putting your suit on yet? That video had us all laughing, you were doing that on purpose, right?

sigh...

you're not even entertaining.

bai

Chokenpuke
02-11-2009, 08:13 PM
Sometimes trolls are funny, sometimes.

isaku900
02-11-2009, 08:14 PM
yay


This message is hidden because CrankyOldPr1ck is on your ignore list.

Jason2459
02-11-2009, 08:15 PM
Sometimes trolls are funny, sometimes.

not this time. outlaws has the corner on funny trolls. The trolls here are just stupid and boring. Including this current one.

Jason2459
02-11-2009, 08:18 PM
yay


This message is hidden because CrankyOldPr1ck is on your ignore list.

yep, my ignore list has been growing recently. Used to have just one person on it.

isaku900
02-11-2009, 08:20 PM
yep, my ignore list has been growing recently. Used to have just one person on it.

yup.

does he think he's still talking to us?

Jason2459
02-11-2009, 08:21 PM
any help/advice is greatly appreciated

Some good advice has been given here. Best thing you can do is keep an open mind. Look up at the stickies and look at the different routines that are available. Again, keep a very open mind when reading through them. I came from a background of no lifting weights, to looking to get bigger, and now one of just getting stronger. I had to relearn at each stage of the game what it took. I've found that since I've focused on getting stronger I've actually gotten bigger then I have ever been before as well. Big plus.

clorox_me
02-11-2009, 08:21 PM
not this time. outlaws has the corner on funny trolls. The trolls here are just stupid and boring. Including this current one.

i dunno... the guy looking to become world's strongest man 5 times, and break every other record in the world was kinda funny

Jason2459
02-11-2009, 08:22 PM
yup.

does he think he's still talking to us?

I think so.

Jason2459
02-11-2009, 08:23 PM
i dunno... the guy looking to become world's strongest man 5 times, and break every other record in the world was kinda funny

lol, I missed that one. There is one that slips in here I guess from time to time that might be funny.

isaku900
02-11-2009, 08:23 PM
I think so.

lol.

bigbeezy, not having any programming is the worst way to gain strength. stickies, find a program.

cjdelaney
02-11-2009, 08:23 PM
yup.

does he think he's still talking to us?

I always get a really big laugh when I imagine these guys behind their computers while their wives are sleeping and their kids are downstairs watching tv or whatever...


"AHA!!! take that you stupid powerlifter-guy!!...Oh man I am just brilliant."

cjdelaney
02-11-2009, 08:27 PM
If you were "Thinking" you would have passed right by my post...You guys are too easy.

oh man you really got to us guy!!


EPIC!

cjdelaney
02-11-2009, 08:33 PM
Bahahaha, you can't resist, can you?

You are killing me Smalls.

I just successfully counter-trolled you.


A troll like you should have known better than to fall for it.

bigbeezy
02-11-2009, 08:33 PM
Some good advice has been given here. Best thing you can do is keep an open mind. Look up at the stickies and look at the different routines that are available. Again, keep a very open mind when reading through them. I came from a background of no lifting weights, to looking to get bigger, and now one of just getting stronger. I had to relearn at each stage of the game what it took. I've found that since I've focused on getting stronger I've actually gotten bigger then I have ever been before as well. Big plus.

thanks guys, I will check into those

user25891
02-11-2009, 08:43 PM
Sometimes trolls are funny, sometimes.


outlaws has the best trolls. They are terrible here it seems.

Jason

PaC-mAn8
02-11-2009, 08:45 PM
Have you read of the 5-3-1 Method at all?

isaku900
02-11-2009, 11:11 PM
another reason why no one should listen to Poliquin


The Athlete's Lift

Q: Is there a single best lift to increase overall athletic performance? Like a lift that all athletes should do, regardless of sport?

A: Power snatch. Well, unless your sport is kayaking. Other than that, the power snatch reigns supreme in any sport that involves the lower body.

If you went to the Olympics and asked all the athletes to perform a power snatch, you could accurately predict performance in power sports. In other words, the correlation is very high. Good power snatchers are also good athletes. And if an athlete improves his power snatch, his power performance also improves.

Quick story: I've seen Adam Nelson, the elite shot-putter, do three reps, shoulder-width grip, with 140 kilos [308 pounds].

I've also watched a female world-champion javelin thrower do 250 pounds. Pretty much anyone who's any good at a shot-term power sport can do at least three plates in the power snatch [for a single rep].

of course there are numerous studies that indicate there is extremely poor correlation between the classical weightlifting movements and performance in sports (especially throwing). Contrasted with indications that the squat (box squat especially) and the deadlift correlate extremely well with sports performance.

this is of course followed by this ludicrous statement:



The Lift Athletes Should Avoid

Q: Is there a lift you'd never have an athlete do?

A: One lift I don't like very much for athletes is the box squat. I never prescribe it.

For one thing, there are a lot of better, less injurious alternatives. Many lifters, when they get fatigued or they lose concentration, will bounce off the box and get fractures in their sacral vertebrae. I may have 70 different tools that work and are safe, and one that may be potentially unsafe. Which one do I pick when working with highly paid athletes that I must get strong in only 11 weeks?

If you do use the box squat for powerlifting applications, remember that it requires very good coaching and someone there to make sure you stay on the ball. I wouldn't prescribe the box squat to an athlete training alone. With a full squat, on the other hand, you don't see those injuries.

Also, outside of powerlifting, the mechanics of box squatting are not found in sport. I don't know of any sport where the shins don't travel forward for propulsion.

Now, you can use box squats sparingly in your training if you're a bodybuilder. They'll certainly hypertrophy the glutes and thighs. But bodybuilding isn't an athletic endeavor.

which goes against well...everything ever written/studied/discussed about box squatting.

quotes from: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/question_of_strength_vol_48

mesayseo
02-11-2009, 11:40 PM
lol.

bigbeezy, not having any programming is the worst way to gain strength. stickies, find a program.


now this is the best post yet^^^^
but in a way you contradict yourself lol not saying GVT is a good program to build a ton of strength but it is a set program better then what he is doing now. but i myself am guilty of not using a program so who am i to say anything.

and to point out this was not an attack so dont attack me.

isaku900
02-11-2009, 11:53 PM
now this is the best post yet^^^^
but in a way you contradict yourself lol not saying GVT is a good program to build a ton of strength but it is a set program better then what he is doing now. but i myself am guilty of not using a program so who am i to say anything.

and to point out this was not an attack so dont attack me.

lol yeah, i realize the irony...but GVT does suck for strength. i meant the stickie programs.

holbee
02-12-2009, 04:52 AM
Try this. For once a week it worked well for me for a time.

http://www.joeskopec.com/five.html

It's a 16 week, 5x5 progressive program. I'm generally good with it for a cycle or so till I plateau and need to switch it up.

nekkidbear
02-12-2009, 07:02 AM
Had the same issue... until I started benching more than one time a week. Dynamic and Max effort days work well. Def read stickies and do some research.

isaku900
02-12-2009, 07:04 AM
You have no idea what you are preaching about...Poliquin, GVT and BPB are strength based theories, yet you are under the impression they are some type of aerobic exercise, you sinner.

Chances are until I mentioned it, you never read up on it...Had you, you would not have cast such aspersion(s) on "Proven Methods".

More education for you: http://www.eclipsecec.com/bt_articles/wagner_training_articles.html

Have at it and you're welcome.

dude..getting all your posts deleted and having your account banned is a hint that there is something wrong with your behavior...

multiple accounts are also a bannable offense.

bai bai.

madaozeki
02-12-2009, 08:20 AM
of course there are numerous studies that indicate there is extremely poor correlation between the classical weightlifting movements and performance in sports (especially throwing). Contrasted with indications that the squat (box squat especially) and the deadlift correlate extremely well with sports performance.
which goes against well...everything ever written/studied/discussed about box squatting.


Really? Seriously? Academic studies? Numerous? With valid results? About Oly lifting NOT correlating with power sports and box squats correlating with power sports? Not just anecdotal evidence?

Link me to 5 (since they're so numerous). I'll place money that those studies are rippable to shreds by any competent scientist or anyone who knows anything about statistics and experimental design.

isaku900
02-12-2009, 08:25 AM
Really? Seriously? Academic studies? Numerous? With valid results? About Oly lifting NOT correlating with power sports and box squats correlating with power sports? Not just anecdotal evidence?

Link me to 5 (since they're so numerous). I'll place money that those studies are rippable to shreds by any competent scientist or anyone who knows anything about statistics and experimental design.

sure thing...

louie quoted some at the seminar i was at last weekend...i didn't take notes. so did the UC Davis throws coach, and the UNR strength coaches, and several others.

if you want I'll edit my post to be more accurate...or you can take the bunch out of your panties.

Jason2459
02-12-2009, 08:43 AM
Really? Seriously? Academic studies? Numerous? With valid results? About Oly lifting NOT correlating with power sports and box squats correlating with power sports? Not just anecdotal evidence?

Link me to 5 (since they're so numerous). I'll place money that those studies are rippable to shreds by any competent scientist or anyone who knows anything about statistics and experimental design.

Read anything by the following people:
Medvedyev, Verkhoshansky, Roman, Bompa, Kurz, Komi, Siff, Tabachnic, and Zatsiorsky.

isaku900
02-12-2009, 08:46 AM
Read anything by the following people:
Medvedyev, Verkhoshansky, Roman, Bompa, Kurz, Komi, Siff, Tabachnic, and Zatsiorsky.

jason cleans up the rebound and puts it in top shelf...

that's not to say that there is no correlation between the classical lifts and athletic performance, just that its far less than the squat and the deadlift.

PotKettleBlack
02-12-2009, 08:49 AM
jason cleans up the rebound and puts it in top shelf...

that's not to say that there is no correlation between the classical lifts and athletic performance, just that its far less than the squat and the deadlift.
A simple ''pwned'', would've sufficed.

Beezy, just train in a powerlifting style. For that, you train lifts, not bodyparts. Stickies are a good read for that sort of thing.

spooq
02-12-2009, 08:53 AM
Could this be because the Oly lifts are so technical?

WowWeakForum
02-12-2009, 08:59 AM
take a weight that you can do for 15 reps, then do 30 reps with it with as few sets as possible, resting 90 secs between sets, follow that up with 5 sets of dumbbell oriented accessory lifts and 5 sets of whatever

once you can get the 30 reps with 2 sets, increase the weight by15% and start the cycle over

Kiknskreem
02-12-2009, 09:02 AM
that's not to say that there is no correlation between the classical lifts and athletic performance, just that its far less than the squat and the deadlift.

Do the power versions of the lift count as "classical lifts"?

I'm not sure.

A power snatch is going to tell you a lot more about an athlete's coordination, RFD, and flexibility than a deadlift.

spooq
02-12-2009, 09:04 AM
Could this be because the Oly lifts are so technical?


Do the power versions of the lift count as "classical lifts"?

I'm not sure.

A power snatch is going to tell you a lot more about an athlete's coordination, RFD, and flexibility than a deadlift.

What he said.

j.benjamin
02-12-2009, 09:07 AM
Just buy a bench press shirt. That will increase your ability to press 100 fold.



Duh.

madaozeki
02-12-2009, 09:21 AM
jason cleans up the rebound and puts it in top shelf...

that's not to say that there is no correlation between the classical lifts and athletic performance, just that its far less than the squat and the deadlift.

I've read Siff and Kurz and there's nothing that remotely proves your point with any degree of scientific validity. And I love Siff.

Point me to specific articles/papers/peer reviewed journals, anything, that shows a higher correlation between box squats (not squats/deadlifts... you specifically said "box squats" in your original post) and athletic power than Olympic lifts and athletic power... I honestly have no idea if what you're claiming is valid, but I've never seen anything that came close to proving that it is that wasn't riddled with methodological flaws, statistical errors, or unwarranted leaps to invalid conclusions. If something's out there, I'd love to see it. Seriously.

PotKettleBlack
02-12-2009, 09:35 AM
He will produce nothing, because he only knows what the other cronies in his little circle of trust tell him. Honestly there is a whole host of offenders on here who preach their verbal diahreaha about what's right, wrong or otherwise completely insane and unless you fall into line with their cult like beliefs you are rendered an infidel.
You're nearly 40 years old. Have you not got anything better to do than this?

Jason2459
02-12-2009, 09:37 AM
Do the power versions of the lift count as "classical lifts"?

I'm not sure.

A power snatch is going to tell you a lot more about an athlete's coordination, RFD, and flexibility than a deadlift.

I do know that the power clean and power snatch where used by the Rusians along with the front squat, back squat, and close grip bench to test their weight lifters.

for the anal retentive, not you kik, this was in "Weight Lifting Fitness for All Sports". Sorry, can't remember which one of the people above I mentioned was the author.

Jason2459
02-12-2009, 09:47 AM
I've read Siff and Kurz and there's nothing that remotely proves your point with any degree of scientific validity. And I love Siff.

Point me to specific articles/papers/peer reviewed journals, anything, that shows a higher correlation between box squats (not squats/deadlifts... you specifically said "box squats" in your original post) and athletic power than Olympic lifts and athletic power... I honestly have no idea if what you're claiming is valid, but I've never seen anything that came close to proving that it is that wasn't riddled with methodological flaws, statistical errors, or unwarranted leaps to invalid conclusions. If something's out there, I'd love to see it. Seriously.

Actually yes there is. Sorry I can't point you to the exact sentence/paragraph/page/book right now. As I do not have them anymore. If you'd like you might find them somewhere down the Mississippi right now. Easiest thing would be to call up Louie Simmons and discuss this with him as he is much more the expert here. He is always happy to discuss these things with people, seriously.

isaku900
02-12-2009, 10:04 AM
Note: They can band me until their hearts content. I have access to unlimited IP's and MAC Addresses(if need be)...Eventually i'll get bored "learning" you something and I will go away on my own volition.

fairly sure this is a violation of the terms of service of your internet provider (under abuse provisions most likely)

madaozeki
02-12-2009, 10:29 AM
Actually yes there is. Sorry I can't point you to the exact sentence/paragraph/page/book right now. As I do not have them anymore. If you'd like you might find them somewhere down the Mississippi right now. Easiest thing would be to call up Louie Simmons and discuss this with him as he is much more the expert here. He is always happy to discuss these things with people, seriously.

Louie Simmons' is an expert on training elite level powerlifters. His opinions on Olympic weightlifting are not based in any actual research with elite-level Olympic weightlifting athletes, or Olympic weightlifters of any caliber in fact. He trains powerlifters brilliantly, especially those using restoratives. That is all. I've read his views on Olympic lifting and came away less than impressed. I've never called him up to talk about it, though. I could certainly learn a lot from him about training for powerlifting, I'm sure. Not so sure about Olympic lifting though.

I don't get why people seem to think that Louie Simmons' opinions on Olympic weightlifting hold any water at all, since he's never trained a single successful Olympic lifter at the national or international level. They're opinions, which he is of course entitled to, but they're untested, unproven opinions. I'd love to see the results from his ideas applied to Olympic lifting (I'm very skeptical that they'd work any better than current methods, but it sure would be cool if they did), but they simply don't exist.

And like I said, if you can't point out any actual research, I'm inclined to believe none exists. Because I've sure searched and found nothing particularly compelling. There's plenty of conjecture on both sides, but virtually zero valid results. And I'm certainly not flaming; it just really pisses me off when people spout off about something they know next to nothing about, make appeals to authority that they themselves haven't read thoroughly or don't understand properly, and make sweeping generalizations about things they simply aren't qualified to make.

Why all the bluster, noise and sarcasm when you obviously don't know what you're talking about? And don't pretend you do, because you don't.

Jason2459
02-12-2009, 10:38 AM
Louie Simmons' is an expert on training elite level powerlifters. His opinions on Olympic weightlifting are not based in any actual research with elite-level Olympic weightlifting athletes, or Olympic weightlifters of any caliber in fact. He trains powerlifters brilliantly, especially those using restoratives. That is all. I've read his views on Olympic lifting and came away less than impressed. I've never called him up to talk about it, though. I could certainly learn a lot from him about training for powerlifting, I'm sure. Not so sure about Olympic lifting though.

I don't get why people seem to think that Louie Simmons' opinions on Olympic weightlifting hold any water at all, since he's never trained a single successful Olympic lifter at the national or international level. They're opinions, which he is of course entitled to, but they're untested, unproven opinions. I'd love to see the results from his ideas applied to Olympic lifting (I'm very skeptical that they'd work any better than current methods, but it sure would be cool if they did), but they simply don't exist.

And like I said, if you can't point out any actual research, I'm inclined to believe none exists. Because I've sure searched and found nothing particularly compelling. There's plenty of conjecture on both sides, but virtually zero valid results. And I'm certainly not flaming; it just really pisses me off when people spout off about something they know next to nothing about, make appeals to authority that they themselves haven't read thoroughly or don't understand properly, and make sweeping generalizations about things they simply aren't qualified to make.

Why all the bluster, noise and sarcasm when you obviously don't know what you're talking about? And don't pretend you do, because you don't.

funny, I thought we were talking about sports in general and not weightlifting here. Louie Simmons actually has directly been involved in training or indirectly through training coaches of many pro athletic teams from various different sports. He's not just about powerlifters or specifically elite powerlifters. He has brought up many average powerlifters and made them Elite. Chuck V. being one of them.
BTW, never said I was an expert on this. I am a very sarcastic person and know how to keep cool. You on the other hand seem pretty uptight.

Edit: I can't point to a specific as I no longer have the books in my posession anymore. I lost well over 95% of every I ever had in a flood last year.

madaozeki
02-12-2009, 10:46 AM
funny, I thought we were talking about sports in general and not weightlifting here. Louie Simmons actually has directly been involved in training or indirectly through training coaches of many pro athletic teams from various different sports.

Me: "Point me to specific articles/papers/peer reviewed journals, anything, that shows a higher correlation between box squats (not squats/deadlifts... you specifically said "box squats" in your original post) and athletic power than Olympic lifts and athletic power..."

Jason: "Easiest thing would be to call up Louie Simmons and discuss this with him as he is much more the expert here. He is always happy to discuss these things with people, seriously."

Why would I contact someone who doesn't even know how to coach an Olympic lift properly?

You clearly believe something based on what you think Louie Simmons believes. You don't have any specific examples of references you've read to back up your assertions showing actual data. This is called an appeal to authority and doesn't cut it. Call me anal retentive, but this is a fascinating question to me and I've still not seen any actual data that is remotely conclusive one way or the other, and based on what Isaku specifically said, I thought he might have a reference. When you chimed in, I thought you might, too. But neither of you do, except "call Louie".

I was hoping for something tangible and interesting coming out of this thread, but I guess this is the wrong place to hope for that. Should've known better I guess :)

Edit:


Edit: I can't point to a specific as I no longer have the books in my posession anymore. I lost well over 95% of every I ever had in a flood last year.

Holy crap. I thought that was just snark in your previous post and I didn't get it. I had no idea. Sorry to hear about that.

Edit #2:


BTW, never said I was an expert on this. I am a very sarcastic person and know how to keep cool. You on the other hand seem pretty uptight.

Yup, I am, but only about things I care deeply about. Hearing personal trainers at the gym spout off about how dangerous lifting heavy weight is and how the latest Swiss bosu ball treadmill Smith machine with a manta ray is the way to go drives me insane. I hoped for a safe refuge from baseless statements in these parts...

I'm calming down now ;)

isaku900
02-12-2009, 10:57 AM
louie started off his career as a weightlifter, i believe he was national class before he started powerlifting.

if i had written down the studies he had quoted I'd be able to give them to you, as it was I was not paying attention during the sports specific training portion of the seminar...I did pay attention to the powerlifting stuff.

calling louie would get you the specifics.

also:

CrankyO1dPr1ck This user is on your Ignore List.

you're talking to yourself idiot.

spooq
02-12-2009, 11:17 AM
Again, you presume to be Omniscience. The company I work for leases 39 T-1's from Megapath Networks.

Here give them a call...I am sure they will be very reseptive to cancelling out $121,000 a month leasing fees we pay.

Anyhow, back to the weightlifting talk...

Enjoy
http://www.isu.edu/~andesean/SIMSEM.htm

I'm sure the company you work for will be fascinated to find out what you are doing on their time and internet connection.

spooq
02-12-2009, 11:22 AM
Funny how that works...In the unlikely event they should contact my place of employment, the call will be coming to me, go figure.

So you are the only person in the company with a phone line? lol

Just stop being a twat and go away already.

PotKettleBlack
02-12-2009, 11:24 AM
Can someone close this thread?

spooq
02-12-2009, 11:25 AM
Can someone close this thread?

PM Iron619, he killed another thread I reported to him earlier.

spooq
02-12-2009, 11:29 AM
PotKettleBlack
hates you, probably.

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
Age: 19
Stats: 6'5", 255 lbs
Posts: 8,838
BodyBlog Entries: 0
BodyPoints: 0
Rep Power: 4444


Nice rep power.

PotKettleBlack
02-12-2009, 11:31 AM
PotKettleBlack
hates you, probably.

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
Age: 19
Stats: 6'5", 255 lbs
Posts: 8,838
BodyBlog Entries: 0
BodyPoints: 0
Rep Power: 4444


Nice rep power.
Lol. Why did you write out my stats though? :confused:

spooq
02-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Lol. Why did you write out my stats though? :confused:

I just copy-pasted the whole thing :)

PotKettleBlack
02-12-2009, 12:24 PM
I just copy-pasted the whole thing :)
Oh I see.

BEhave
02-12-2009, 12:28 PM
I think the sticky is still up. There are tons of great stength routines that will add to your bench there.

Donkeyno9
02-12-2009, 12:32 PM
Can someone close this thread?
I also reported this one. This section has taken a beating the past 2-3 weeks:(

PotKettleBlack
02-12-2009, 12:40 PM
I also reported this one. This section has taken a beating the past 2-3 weeks:(
For sure.

Jason2459
02-12-2009, 12:42 PM
didn't need to be closed just cleaned up. all the crankyoldguy posts that keep coming up as ignored just needs to be deleted. Though I suppose at this point with all his posts in here it would be easier to just lock it up.

madaozeki
02-12-2009, 04:19 PM
louie started off his career as a weightlifter, i believe he was national class before he started powerlifting.


Nope, he wasn't. There's no such thing as "national class" in Olympic lifting, unless you consider "national class" someone who lifted at a national meet. He never once lifted at a National Championship or Olympic team qualifier. And based on his wikipedia page, he starting Olympic lifting at age 12, but discovered powerlifting in 1966, going on to great success in that sport. Not sure how long that means he Olympic lifted, and no doubt he was very strong, but if he was successful whatsoever in Olympic lifting, I can't imagine why he never competed in national meets. That was during the heyday of US Olympic weightlifting, after all...



if i had written down the studies he had quoted I'd be able to give them to you, as it was I was not paying attention during the sports specific training portion of the seminar...I did pay attention to the powerlifting stuff.


But you said very confidently:

"of course there are numerous studies that indicate there is extremely poor correlation between the classical weightlifting movements and performance in sports (especially throwing). Contrasted with indications that the squat (box squat especially) and the deadlift correlate extremely well with sports performance."

How can you be sure if you didn't listen? Just curious...

I'm still calling bullsh*t on those studies ;)



calling louie would get you the specifics.


Actually I found a few enlightening threads discussing a related issue, involving several weightlifting coaches, one of whom knows Louie Simmons personally and applies some of his ideas to his own lifters, though I don't know if they do box squats (Glen Pendlay). Still don't see any reason to call the guy, who seems to be very well-respected as a powerlifting coach among Olympic lifters, but has acknowledged himself that he's flabbergasted that he's received so much grief from his comments by the Olympic lifting community. He didn't expect anyone in Olympic lifting to pay any attention in the first place, since he's a powerlifting coach!!

isaku900
02-12-2009, 09:54 PM
dame deshou madaozeki sama...

i really...don't...care...

buddymander
02-13-2009, 12:18 AM
Even Poliquin admits strength goes down using GVT.

Are you dense?

Stanco
02-13-2009, 01:44 AM
Even Poliquin admits strength goes down using GVT.

Are you dense?

I dont agree with his principles but he has NEVER said that. All his routines are about gaining strength.

PitzaPapa
02-13-2009, 02:03 AM
write your own training cycles. your going to have to learn how to make yourself stronger eventually. Developing your own method is one of the best things about training.

spooq
02-13-2009, 04:11 AM
Yeah, Isaku is so weak in the real world, I would never listen to anything he says.

275
1. Isaku............275.5 .705/518/617.......1840.....6.67xbw....475.63......single

Metal Jerk
02-13-2009, 06:44 AM
hey beezy post a vid of a working set on bench

Whey Hey
02-13-2009, 06:58 AM
I wonder if Beezy has actually got ANY HELP from this thread at all? Probably not..

3 pages of s.h.i.t

Jason2459
02-13-2009, 07:14 AM
.....

Actually I found a few enlightening threads discussing a related issue, involving several weightlifting coaches, one of whom knows Louie Simmons personally and applies some of his ideas to his own lifters, though I don't know if they do box squats (Glen Pendlay). Still don't see any reason to call the guy, who seems to be very well-respected as a powerlifting coach among Olympic lifters, but has acknowledged himself that he's flabbergasted that he's received so much grief from his comments by the Olympic lifting community. He didn't expect anyone in Olympic lifting to pay any attention in the first place, since he's a powerlifting coach!!

You'll probably find a lot of Louie's influence in many sports. He reaches much farther out then just powerlifting.

Why do you keep hitting your head against a wall here. We know we are not the experts here on this. You know, we know. I do know it's in one of those several book by those many authors already stated. I do know Louie could give you references right off the top of his head because he's a freak like that. Isaku has already said he could reference one of many strength coaches and Louie at his seminar but not himself personally. Why keep beating a dead horse here.

You don't believe and call it hog wash. Great. Isaku said he doesn't care is not really a backing out strategy just a statement of well, just not caring. There's really no reason for us to go further with this as we've already stated the extent of our knowledge. Which you already see is limited on this topic so why use us for research advise? Never mind, please don't answer because frankly I've given up caring after writing all this stupid crap out.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 07:56 AM
You'll probably find a lot of Louie's influence in many sports. He reaches much farther out then just powerlifting.

Why do you keep hitting your head against a wall here. We know we are not the experts here on this. You know, we know. I do know it's in one of those several book by those many authors already stated. I do know Louie could give you references right off the top of his head because he's a freak like that. Isaku has already said he could reference one of many strength coaches and Louie at his seminar but not himself personally. Why keep beating a dead horse here.

You don't believe and call it hog wash. Great. Isaku said he doesn't care is not really a backing out strategy just a statement of well, just not caring. There's really no reason for us to go further with this as we've already stated the extent of our knowledge. Which you already see is limited on this topic so why use us for research advise? Never mind, please don't answer because frankly I've given up caring after writing all this stupid crap out.

because in his mind his sport has been slighted...

i understand the response, but his perception is clouding his reason.

spooq
02-13-2009, 07:58 AM
I wonder if Beezy has actually got ANY HELP from this thread at all? Probably not..

3 pages of s.h.i.t

Sad but true.

Jason2459
02-13-2009, 08:07 AM
because in his mind his sport has been slighted...

i understand the response, but his perception is clouding his reason.

I guess it doesn't help that Louie has stated that if he were to coach the US Olympic team they would be in the top and that he never has believed in training his powerlifters with the classic olympic lifts. LOL

isaku900
02-13-2009, 08:11 AM
I guess it doesn't help that Louie has stated that if he were to coach the US Olympic team they would be in the top and that he never has believed in training his powerlifters with the classic olympic lifts. LOL

yea he mentioned a couple of times how USA Weightlifting gets millions of dollars a year in government support and they can't put more than a single person in the olympics...but the US owns most of the all time records in powerlifting receiving 0 money.

madaozeki
02-13-2009, 09:04 AM
because in his mind his sport has been slighted...

i understand the response, but his perception is clouding his reason.

You stated something as "obviously true" that is anything but. If it's true, I'd be interested to learn why. You clearly have no idea why and have admitted as much. Since you came across as so sure of yourself, I misinterpreted that as true understanding. I was wrong and I apologize for that.

From my point of view, the evidence I've seen is inconclusive. I never argued that my sport or training methods are somehow "superior", just that no-one really knows and people who claim to are talking out of their asses, at least on this board, which is a shame, since there is actually a chance for productive discussion, like we have down in the Olympic lifting section.

I guess I'm just disappointed that you guys don't really care, because it seems like something worth caring about and not accepting on blind faith, or passed off as "obviously true" "knowledge" to noobs who don't know any better when said "knowledge" is just plain inconclusive.


I guess it doesn't help that Louie has stated that if he were to coach the US Olympic team they would be in the top and that he never has believed in training his powerlifters with the classic olympic lifts. LOL

Yeah, that comment certainly got under the skin of a lot of the Olympic weightlifting coaches around the country :D Interestingly, if Louie actually believes what he said, he's the only one... besides other powerlifters, of course!


yea he mentioned a couple of times how USA Weightlifting gets millions of dollars a year in government support and they can't put more than a single person in the olympics...but the US owns most of the all time records in powerlifting receiving 0 money.

If that's what he said, he's as wrong as you could possibly be. USA Weightifting gets zero money from the government. Zero, not "millions". The USOC is funded by private sponsors, and USA Weightlifting gets a very small % of that, $600,000/year as of 2005, prior to the budget slashes. Hardly millions of dollars, and none from the government. USAW has to make up any shortfall through private fundraising and membership fees. Most athletes get zero money, and those that do certainly don't make anything resembling a living wage. Furthermore, the USA sent 5 weightlifters to the past 2 Olympics (out of a possible 10 maximum per country). What does he mean "a single person"? That's just plain wrong.

I have just the smallest feeling that the amount of money pumped into powerlifting and individual athletes by private sponsors, across federations, etc, far exceeds $600,000/year. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. I don't want to make any assumptions. How many elite level powerlifters actually have sponsors in the US? And what sort of deals do they have with the gear companies? Who pays to hold the big meets? What sorts of membership fees do you guys pay to be a part of a fed? Olympic weightlifting could sure borrow a ideas from powerlifting on fundraising, if not actual training advice ;)

Jason2459
02-13-2009, 10:02 AM
You stated something as "obviously true" that is anything but. If it's true, I'd be interested to learn why. You clearly have no idea why and have admitted as much. Since you came across as so sure of yourself, I misinterpreted that as true understanding. I was wrong and I apologize for that.

From my point of view, the evidence I've seen is inconclusive. I never argued that my sport or training methods are somehow "superior", just that no-one really knows and people who claim to are talking out of their asses, at least on this board, which is a shame, since there is actually a chance for productive discussion, like we have down in the Olympic lifting section.

I guess I'm just disappointed that you guys don't really care, because it seems like something worth caring about and not accepting on blind faith, or passed off as "obviously true" "knowledge" to noobs who don't know any better when said "knowledge" is just plain inconclusive.


I mostly don't want to comment back on this because of your gesture that, to put it mildly, I am stupid and not worthy to be talking to you. Sorry, if I can't point to anything specific now and really don't want to be drudging around the Internet for "scientific" articles. I have a hard time believing in research from the Internet in the first place. You quoted one of the resources I trust the least, Wiki.

I trust and believe in what Louie says yes because of also reading the books and research that he based his training off of. I also trust him in what I do in training because of what he has been able to produce out of his gym at WestSide Barbell. Plus, the fact that he has been in direct consultation with many of the top Strength coaches around the world in many different sport disciplines.

Strength training is all he has ever known, believed in, and cared about. He is literally giving and dedicating his entire life to this.





Yeah, that comment certainly got under the skin of a lot of the Olympic weightlifting coaches around the country :D Interestingly, if Louie actually believes what he said, he's the only one... besides other powerlifters, of course!


I'm sure he has pissed off a lot of people in the Weightlifting community. I have no idea what he could or could not do as a US Olympic coach. I do believe that if he was he would put as much research and time into making himself one of the best.



If that's what he said, he's as wrong as you could possibly be. USA Weightifting gets zero money from the government. Zero, not "millions". The USOC is funded by private sponsors, and USA Weightlifting gets a very small % of that, $600,000/year as of 2005, prior to the budget slashes. Hardly millions of dollars, and none from the government. USAW has to make up any shortfall through private fundraising and membership fees. Most athletes get zero money, and those that do certainly don't make anything resembling a living wage. Furthermore, the USA sent 5 weightlifters to the past 2 Olympics (out of a possible 10 maximum per country). What does he mean "a single person"? That's just plain wrong.

I have just the smallest feeling that the amount of money pumped into powerlifting and individual athletes by private sponsors, across federations, etc, far exceeds $600,000/year. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. I don't want to make any assumptions. How many elite level powerlifters actually have sponsors in the US? And what sort of deals do they have with the gear companies? Who pays to hold the big meets? What sorts of membership fees do you guys pay to be a part of a fed? Olympic weightlifting could sure borrow a ideas from powerlifting on fundraising, if not actual training advice ;)

There is certainly money being made in Powerlifting. It is very minimally being received by the lifters though. Companies that produce equipment and supplements is where the majority of it goes. Federations get the rest. Just a very few handful of lifters make any money in the "Pro" meets and maybe get a couple thousand at most for 1st place.

Powerlifting use to get a lot more air time on TV. Sounds like there is a push to get that again. That would be great for this sport if that happens. Though many lifters don't care because they are just content with what we have now.

madaozeki
02-13-2009, 10:33 AM
I mostly don't want to comment back on this because of your gesture that, to put it mildly, I am stupid and not worthy to be talking to you. Sorry, if I can't point to anything specific now and really don't want to be drudging around the Internet for "scientific" articles. I have a hard time believing in research from the Internet in the first place. You quoted one of the resources I trust the least, Wiki.


My comment was actually largely directed at Isaku, who made the omniscient-seeming comment in the first place. Wikipedia was only cited for Louie Simmons' Olympic lifting "career". I couldn't find anything anywhere else that mentioned his Oly experience. I did look up the results from every national junior and senior weightlifting competition from the 50's through the 70's to see if he was on it, but he wasn't. I share similar opinions about Wikipedia in general, for sure :D

I never meant you 2 were stupid or not worth talking to. Far from it, I usually enjoy reading what you both have to say, and rarely chime in since I'm ignorant on most of the things you're talking about. On this particular issue, though, I don't see anything compelling that supports the original point.



I trust and believe in what Louie says yes because of also reading the books and research that he based his training off of. I also trust him in what I do in training because of what he has been able to produce out of his gym at WestSide Barbell. Plus, the fact that he has been in direct consultation with many of the top Strength coaches around the world in many different sport disciplines.

Strength training is all he has ever known, believed in, and cared about. He is literally giving and dedicating his entire life to this.


Which is awesome, and admirable. I never said anything contrary to that. I'd be honored to be able to train at his gym or to hear him speak. And if the research is compelling, you can bet I'd alter my own training accordingly!




I'm sure he has pissed off a lot of people in the Weightlifting community. I have no idea what he could or could not do as a US Olympic coach. I do believe that if he was he would put as much research and time into making himself one of the best.


I don't doubt that, and would be fascinated to see what he'd do with Olympic lifters.



There is certainly money being made in Powerlifting. It is very minimally being received by the lifters though. Companies that produce equipment and supplements is where the majority of it goes. Federations get the rest. Just a very few handful of lifters make any money in the "Pro" meets and maybe get a couple thousand at most for 1st place.


Sounds like Olympic lifting, except the equipment is so minimal that it doesn't really generate much revenue, and it lasts so long that it rarely needs replacing. Just this past year, 2 Olympic lifting meets have begun offering cash prizes. I hope that trend continues!



Powerlifting use to get a lot more air time on TV. Sounds like there is a push to get that again. That would be great for this sport if that happens. Though many lifters don't care because they are just content with what we have now.

Again, sounds like Olympic lifting, though most lifters actually do love watching the sport and gobble up whatever limited TV or internet broadcasts there are.

Cheers guys.

Oh, and Isaku, だめだったよ。ごめんなさい。すごく残念に思いましたけど。理解してくれていると思います。

Jason2459
02-13-2009, 10:54 AM
hmm, between trying to translate the japanese from Isaku and madaozeki makes very little sense.


edit: found a better translation. Making more sense now.

isaku900
02-13-2009, 10:56 AM
man **** kanji.....

dozou, gomenasai. *bow*

madaozeki
02-13-2009, 11:12 AM
man **** kanji.....


Yikes, sorry, just assumed :)

Dame datta yo. Gomen nasai. Sugoku zannen ni omoima****akedo. Rikai ****ekureteiru to omoimasu.



dozou, gomenasai. *bow*

osu. rei.


------------

So how can I increase my bench press in time for Valentine's Day? I need to boost my 25-rep max by 100 lbs so my 1-rep-max calculator gives me a max of 1250. Is that possible? Should I try a 5x5? Should I try lifting in kg instead?

We do have a less-exasperating group of noobs down in our section ;) I feel your pain!

:D

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:14 AM
Yikes, sorry, just assumed :)

Dame datta yo. Gomen nasai. Sugoku zannen ni omoima****akedo. Rikai ****ekureteiru to omoimasu.



osu. rei.



there's a reason I'm writing in romaji ;)

madaozeki
02-13-2009, 11:22 AM
there's a reason I'm writing in romaji ;)

Thought maybe you just didn't have Japanese input method enabled! :D

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:24 AM
Thought maybe you just didn't have Japanese input method enabled! :D

that too...also i hate kanji...makes getting around in tokyo difficult though.

madaozeki
02-13-2009, 11:26 AM
that too...also i hate kanji...makes getting around in tokyo difficult though.

Tokyo's not too too bad... Try Kyushu. That experience sure spurred me to learn kanji in a hurry!

isaku900
02-13-2009, 11:30 AM
Tokyo's not too too bad... Try Kyushu. That experience sure spurred me to learn kanji in a hurry!

never been to Kyushu, my family is from Kamakura, Tokyo and the clan compound is in Karuizawa.

the fact I haven't been back since 98 also means my japanese is so rusted that I think it needs to be replaced.

madaozeki
02-13-2009, 11:42 AM
never been to Kyushu, my family is from Kamakura, Tokyo and the clan compound is in Karuizawa.

the fact I haven't been back since 98 also means my japanese is so rusted that I think it needs to be replaced.

I haven't spent much time around Tokyo, but Kamakura's always a nice place to visit... My wife is from Shizuoka (Yaizu, actually, with the famous fish market) and I spent most of my time around Nagasaki and the Goto Islands between Japan and Korea. Good times :)

I first went there in 1997, not knowing a word, so just consider that I took up the cause on your behalf!