Best Phase to use Creatine

[14kRPM]

I'm going to be doing a Hypertrophy phase, followed by a Strength phase.

Which phase would be best to use Creatine Mono? The Strength phase right?
Is there any benefit to taking it during a Hypertrophy phase?

Thanks

[pu12en12g]

I'm going to be doing a Hypertrophy phase, followed by a Strength phase.

Which phase would be best to use Creatine Mono?

All of the above

[laalz]

i would probably take it regardless.

[14kRPM]

Oh yea? I was just planning to cycle it on and off. I usually do 1 month on Creatine and 1 month off.

If you were to only choose 1 phase to use creatine, in which phase would it be more beneficial?

[RavensFan2k3]

Oh yea? I was just planning to cycle it on and off. I usually do 1 month on Creatine and 1 month off.

If you were to only choose 1 phase to use creatine, in which phase would it be more beneficial?
first of all...you should definitely do strength phase before hypertrophy phase. I dont see what sense it makes to do it the other way around.

[Iliketolift]

whats with the strength and hypertrophy? Usually with strength + calories =growth. You sound like a noob to me. Creatine should be used ALL the time. I take it 2 months on daily then about a week off.

[14kRPM]

first of all...you should definitely do strength phase before hypertrophy phase. I dont see what sense it makes to do it the other way around.
I've already been doing strength, now I'm starting a new program.
I didn't want to go into a whole lot of detail on my program, because that's not what this thread is about.

I just wanted to confirm or not confirm, that Creatine is more beneficial during a specified Strength training phase?


whats with the strength and hypertrophy? Usually with strength + calories =growth. You sound like a noob to me. Creatine should be used ALL the time. I take it 2 months on daily then about a week off.
It's called Periodization.

[N4cer]

There's no better time to use creatine. The important question is why you are taking any time off creatine. That's a silly move.

[14kRPM]

There's no better time to use creatine. The important question is why you are taking any time off creatine. That's a silly move.
Most everything I've ever read has said that Creatine should be Cycled.

[N4cer]

Most everything I've ever read has said that Creatine should be Cycled.

Sorry to hear that. Keep reading man. Sounds like you got old info and advertising.

[Dominick C]

Use it for 2-3 months or so then get off of it for about a week. Dont worry about the water so much if your in your offseason.

[rpen22]

There's no better time to use creatine. The important question is why you are taking any time off creatine.

I'm gonna have to agree here. It doesn't appear to be necessary to cycle it.

[N4cer]

Use it for 2-3 months or so then get off of it for about a week. Dont worry about the water so much if your in your offseason.Off season? Where did he say anything to indicate that he has an "off season"? Or an "on season" for that matter?

And don't just suggest it. Tell us why. Why would he need to take a week off? What purpose is that to serve? I'd love to get some new info if you have some.

[michael3435]

go off it "every once in a while" for 2 weeks to a month. for now, use it for both of your hypertrophy/strength phases.

[N4cer]

go off it "every once in a while" for 2 weeks to a month. for now, use it for both of your hypertrophy/strength phases.Same question. Why?

[michael3435]

Same question. Why?

well, first off its common sense. i dont know why you would want something in your body that can accumulate and produce kidney stones over a long period of time. i believe all supplements should be cycled in some way. no one knows the long term effects of doing so even though it is safe in the short run.

upon creatine supplementation, the body's natural creatine production is down-regulated. so over long periods of creatine usage, it is my belief that its effectiveness decreases. it takes about 2-4 weeks to return to normal creatine production.

[rpen22]

Unless someone else can explain their reasoning, it appears that the cycling theory came from the animal studies showing downregulation of creatine transporters with chronic Cr supplementation. According to the study below, that's not significantly evident in humans using reasonable dosages.

Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):159-66. Links

Acute and moderate-term creatine monohydrate supplementation does not affect creatine transporter mRNA or protein content in either young or elderly humans.

Tarnopolsky M, Parise G, Fu MH, Brose A, Parshad A, Speer O, Wallimann T.
Department of Medicine (Neurology and Rehabilitation), McMaster University, Hamilton, ON, Canada. tarnopol@mcmaster.ca
Animal studies have shown that supra-physiological creatine monohydrate (Cr-mH) supplementation for 3 months reduced skeletal muscle creatine transporter (CRT) content. The doses of Cr-mH (1-2 g/kg/day) used in these studies were between 5 and 10 times those usually used in human studies, and it is unclear whether a down-regulation of CRT would occur in humans at the recommended doses of 0.1-0.2 g/kg/day. We measured CRT, and citrate synthase (CS) protein content using Western blotting before and after 2 months of Cr-mH supplementation and weight training in young men (N = 11 Cr-mH (0.125 g/kg/ day); N = 8 placebo). CRT and CS were also measured before and after 4 months of Cr-mH supplementation and weight training in elderly (> 65 years) men and women (N = 14 Cr-mH (0.075 g/kg/day); N = 14 placebo). Finally, CRT mRNA was measured using competitive RT-PCR before and after 8-9 days of Cr-mH loading in young men and women (N = 14, CR-mH (mean = 0.18 g/kg/day); N = 13, PL). Total creatine content was significantly elevated after the Cr-mH supplementation period as compared to placebo in each of the studies. Neither Cr-mH supplementation, nor exercise training resulted in measurable alterations in CRT protein content and acute Cr-mH loading did not alter CRT mRNA. There were no gender differences in CRT mRNA or total creatine content in the young subjects and no gender differences in total creatine content or CRT protein content in the elderly subjects. Weight training in young men did not increase CS protein content, however, in the elderly there was a significant increase in CS protein content after exercise training (p < 0.05). These results demonstrated that Cr-mH supplementation during weight training resulted in increases in skeletal muscle total creatine without reductions in CRT protein and acute Cr-mH loading did not decrease CRT mRNA content.
PMID: 12701826 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[michael3435]

Unless someone else can explain their reasoning, it appears that the cycling theory came from the animal studies showing downregulation of creatine transporters with chronic Cr supplementation. According to the study below, that's not significantly evident in humans using reasonable dosages.

i have seen conflicting evidence.

it also depends on the creatine type. i know for a fact that cee down-regulates natural creatine production.

[N4cer]

well, first off its common sense. i dont know why you would want something in your body that can accumulate and produce kidney stones over a long period of time. i believe all supplements should be cycled in some way. no one knows the long term effects of doing so even though it is safe in the short run.

upon creatine supplementation, the body's natural creatine production is down-regulated. so over long periods of creatine usage, it is my belief that its effectiveness decreases. it takes about 2-4 weeks to return to normal creatine production.No, it's actually n00b sense. N00bs who believe it should be cycled because when it was introduced to the market, the companies wanted to market it as stupid powerful. So to do that, they said cycle it. That made people think it's similar to steroids in that it causes some downregulation, and the public views that as "it must be strong".

If you think that long term effects are the reason for cycling, what makes that safer than steady use? It still is the unknown. That's not even a valid argument on any planet.

There is no such evidence of downregulation in humans. Take the supplement kiddie myths elsewhere man.

[rpen22]

i have seen conflicting evidence.

it also depends on the creatine type. i know for a fact that cee down-regulates natural creatine production.

I wouldn't mind seeing the evidence of this.

But, to quote Lyle McDonald, "even if CM supplementation downregulates the body's normal production, this should be a non-issue as long as a daily maintenance dose is used; above normal levels of creatine phosphate in the muscles will be maintained".

[michael3435]

No, it's actually n00b sense. N00bs who believe it should be cycled because when it was introduced to the market, the companies wanted to market it as stupid powerful. So to do that, they said cycle it. That made people think it's similar to steroids in that it causes some downregulation, and the public views that as "it must be strong".

If you think that long term effects are the reason for cycling, what makes that safer than steady use? It still is the unknown. That's not even a valid argument on any planet.

There is no such evidence of downregulation in humans. Take the supplement kiddie myths elsewhere man.
read the first paragraph, pal. i dont know anyone on here who recommends taking creatine for years at a time. its just not smart. if you want to do it go ahead, no one is stopping you.

[michael3435]

I wouldn't mind seeing the evidence of this.

But, to quote Lyle McDonald, "even if CM supplementation downregulates the body's normal production, this should be a non-issue as long as a daily maintenance dose is used; above normal levels of creatine phosphate in the muscles will be maintained".

EXCERPT: Spillane, Willoughby (2008). The Effects of Creatine Ethyl Ester Supplementation Combined with Resistance Training on Body Composition, Muscle Mass and Performance, and Intramuscular Creatine Uptake in Males

"Creatine transporter protein content was shown to be greater in the PLA group (p = 0.008) compared to CEE group (Figure 3). The CR group showed a mild trend (p = 0.073) in creatine transporter protein content compared to the CEE group. While the CEE group had a lower creatine transporter protein content than the other two groups, there was no significant increase in protein content for during the duration of the study for any of the groups. Intramuscular creatine uptake has shown to be dependent on creatine transporter activity (Loike et al., 1988). However, in the present study supplementation with CEE or CR was shown not to change the creatine transporter protein content within the muscle. The possible rationale for this occurrence could be based on previous data illustrating that during chronic creatine ingestion (6-10 weeks) down regulation of the creatine transporter in rat muscle has been shown to occur (Guerrero, 1998)."

[N4cer]

Clueless.

[rpen22]

EXCERPT: Spillane, Willoughby (2008). The Effects of Creatine Ethyl Ester Supplementation Combined with Resistance Training on Body Composition, Muscle Mass and Performance, and Intramuscular Creatine Uptake in Males

"Creatine transporter protein content was shown to be greater in the PLA group (p = 0.008) compared to CEE group (Figure 3). The CR group showed a mild trend (p = 0.073) in creatine transporter protein content compared to the CEE group. While the CEE group had a lower creatine transporter protein content than the other two groups, there was no significant increase in protein content for during the duration of the study for any of the groups. Intramuscular creatine uptake has shown to be dependent on creatine transporter activity (Loike et al., 1988). However, in the present study supplementation with CEE or CR was shown not to change the creatine transporter protein content within the muscle. The possible rationale for this occurrence could be based on previous data illustrating that during chronic creatine ingestion (6-10 weeks) down regulation of the creatine transporter in rat muscle has been shown to occur (Guerrero, 1998)."

Would you mind pointing out where you're seeing evidence of downregulation of Cr production? (serious)

[michael3435]

Would you mind pointing out where you're seeing evidence of downregulation of Cr production? (serious)

of mono or cee? you have to read the whole study and it becomes a little more clear since the abstract is very vague. it says: the CEE group had a lower creatine transporter protein content than the other two groups...down regulation of the creatine transporter in rat muscle has been shown to occur

the last of which referring to mono, which is contradictory to the human study your provided.

[rpen22]

of mono or cee? you have to read the whole study and it becomes a little more clear since the abstract is very vague. it says: the CEE group had a lower creatine transporter protein content than the other two groups...down regulation of the creatine transporter in rat muscle has been shown to occur

the last of which referring to mono, which is contradictory to the human study your provided.

Yes, I had skimmed over it, but I was looking for the part about the downregulation of endogenous Cr production.

Regardless, I was unaware of that paper and am going to read over it more thoroughly.

[MikeCellucor]

The phase of Life....since the older you get the better it is for you, hehe.