Is a high protein diet really needed?

[stevem77]

Is it really needed or optimal muscle growth?

Has any one got ant scientific knowledge to back it up?


Not denying the claim just i have been reading Patrick Holdfords Optimal Nutrition book which i highly reccomend. But he claims with a wealth of scientific studies to back it up; that a diet high in protein will result in rapid calcium loss which will increase the risk of osteoporosis, and will result in weak bones that are easy fractured in later life, arthritis etc.

Also has anyone seen good results on a moderate protein diet?

[nathanbailey]

what do you consider to be low/moderate/high??? give people a number to go on and they will be able to help you a lil more.

[stevem77]

moderate being about 80g - 100g.

[Opies]

the calcium loss from high protein diet is horribly over exagerated. But you also don't need anything more than 1g/lb of protein, and most people could probably build muscle on even less.

[stevem77]

Is there any evidence stating that you need 1g per lb of bodyweight.

if the average person can maintain their bodyweight and live with optimum health on 40g - 70g a day why would someone require 200g of protein a day just to add a few pounds of muscle a month.

And there is scientific evidence backing the calcium loss theory.

Not saying i am completely against high protein intake as i am currently on a diet of 1g per lb. But the book has got me thinking.

[stevem77]

I have also noticed high protein diets make you p*ss alot.

[Opies]

No. Most literature shows you need 1g/kg, but there is no reason not to be safe and get double that amount, plus it helps to get the extra calories, and whey is cheap. Like I said, the calcium loss is way overblown. Unless you are a 60 year old woman who doesn't have any calcium in their diet, it will not effect you. Plus I guarantee you anyone supplementing protein, and taking in 250g+ per day is also taking a multivitamin and drinking milk. If the calcium loss you speak of was as rapid as it's said to be, people like the inuit (eskimos) who eat a diet based almost purely on meat, would all have osteoporosis, yet that isn't the case.

I have also noticed high protein diets make you p*ss alot.

I haven't. I've noticed drinking a lot of water makes you piss a lot

[stevem77]

inuit (eskimos) have a high risk of osteoporosis type it in google.

Studies have shown that a high protein intake will result in calcium loss that cannot be replenished through intaking more calcium and that calcium loss in your urine increases by 50%.

http://www.chiphealth.com/topics/bone-loss-evidence-and-prevention.html

[imccarthy]

80-100 grams a day is certainly enough to meet minimal requirements but is absolutely not optimal if your goal is maximizing muscle growth.

[pink378]

from my understanding, animal protein leads to osteoporosis because humans do not have the digestive enzyme called uricase that is needed to break down uric acid that is found in all meat. so the body leeches minerals from other parts of our body (mostly bone) to help dilute the uric acid and prevent toxicity.

plant protein, on the other hand, does not contain uric acid. I have never heard of osteoporosis in a high protein plant-based diet.

[Catchol]

if the average person can maintain their bodyweight and live with optimum health on 40g - 70g a day why would someone require 200g of protein a day just to add a few pounds of muscle a month.

They don't!

454 grams of protein = 1 lb. Muscle is 70% water. Assuming an ideal metabolism and assuming that the remaining 30% of muscle is just protein (it's actually less than 30%), adding 2 lbs of muscle a month would only require [(454*2)(.3)]/30 = 9 extra grams of protein per day.

In my opinion the "suggested protein requirements" for muscle building are ludicrously inflated! Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?

[imnothere3221]

They don't!

454 grams of protein = 1 lb. Muscle is 70% water. Assuming an ideal metabolism and assuming that the remaining 30% of muscle is just protein (it's actually less than 30%), adding 2 lbs of muscle a month would only require [(454*2)(.3)]/30 = 9 extra grams of protein per day.

In my opinion the "suggested protein requirements" for muscle building are ludicrously inflated! Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?

Don't forget that muscle isn't the only thing made out of protein.Also a lot of protein is stripped of its nitrogen and used as a source of energy or to make uric acid or urea.

[SDC77]

No. Most literature shows you need 1g/kg, but there is no reason not to be safe and get double that amount, plus it helps to get the extra calories, and whey is cheap. Like I said, the calcium loss is way overblown. Unless you are a 60 year old woman who doesn't have any calcium in their diet, it will not effect you. Plus I guarantee you anyone supplementing protein, and taking in 250g+ per day is also taking a multivitamin and drinking milk. If the calcium loss you speak of was as rapid as it's said to be, people like the inuit (eskimos) who eat a diet based almost purely on meat, would all have osteoporosis, yet that isn't the case.


I haven't. I've noticed drinking a lot of water makes you piss a lot

What are your credentials? You sure do guarantee a lot of things for not having a clue what you're talking about.

[LiftinKB]

They don't!

454 grams of protein = 1 lb. Muscle is 70% water. Assuming an ideal metabolism and assuming that the remaining 30% of muscle is just protein (it's actually less than 30%), adding 2 lbs of muscle a month would only require [(454*2)(.3)]/30 = 9 extra grams of protein per day.

In my opinion the "suggested protein requirements" for muscle building are ludicrously inflated! Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?

In prison, they supplement their low dietary protein in the laundry room when no one is around

[Phosphate bond]

Don't forget that muscle isn't the only thing made out of protein.Also a lot of protein is stripped of its nitrogen and used as a source of energy or to make uric acid or urea.

Other organs in the body have amino acid turnover but they aren't growing (except for maybe hair and nails).

Really the amount of positive nitrogen balance needed to accumulate muscle is not that great.

It is just the turnover of amino acids can be so high. For example on a 40% protein cutting diet most if not all those amino acids are being used for either energy or turnover (but not accumulation...unless muscle is being gained)

[stevem77]

How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

Has anyone experiminted with moderate protein high carb diets and had positive results?

[Catchol]

How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

About 100-120 grams / day. I'm 5'10", 185 lbs, about 15% bodyfat. So I'm not exactly small. I make sure I get my protein from a variety of sources.

[stevem77]

Im 5' 11'' - 6' 172 pounds around 12-13% bf at the moment i consume 180grams of protein per day.

I am planning a diet where i am only eating 130grams of protein with 60% of my 3000 a day calories coming from carbs, 20% fat and 20% protein.

This 60% - 20% - 20% ratio is what is recommended by nutrisionist's for a healthy diet; i dont see why a bodybuilder should be any different exept consume slightly more calories

[stevem77]

i will also be cutting down on meat protein and including more vegetarian protein sources

[Catchol]

Im 5' 11'' - 6' 172 pounds around 12-13% bf at the moment i consume 180grams of protein per day.

I am planning a diet where i am only eating 130grams of protein with 60% of my 3000 a day calories coming from carbs, 20% fat and 20% protein.

This 60% - 20% - 20% ratio is what is recommended by nutrisionist's for a healthy diet; i dont see why a bodybuilder should be any different exept consume slightly more calories

I think bodybuilders would do well on a high fat, moderate protein, moderate carb diet. This is what I've been doing (along with the Warrior Diet) and it has worked very well for me. As long as the majority of the fat comes from "good" sources (ie, EFA sources), this eating plan seems very sustainable in the long-term. Most of the carbs I get come from bread and pasta, beans, milk, and whatever carbs are in the green veggies I eat.

[stevem77]

Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.

Do you not find that your energy levels are lower with high fat diets?

[Catchol]

Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.

Do you not find that your energy levels are lower with high fat diets?

No, I find the opposite is true for me.

[Jay Rawd]

I'd say that higher protein intakes are needed when cutting, not so much when bulking.

Much easier to be in a positive nitrogen balance when overconsuming calories.

1 g/lb. is pretty much enough. Some (sane) bodybuilders go up to 1.5 grams per lb. I'd say that's about the maximum. 1 g/lb. is fine, though. Bulking is more of a battle of adding more carbs than protein. Once protein needs are met, adding calories in the form of carbs does a better job since protein has a pretty bad energy turnover ratio and extra just gets converted to glucose, anyway. If you're insulin resistant, I'd add more calories from nuts or legumes to get some fat in.

[PopeGregorius]

Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.


Here we go again.

[kamikenze]

In my opinion, having a high protein diet is not advisable. Why? Because, the excess protein will just be converted into glucose. This will eventually be stored as fat if not used by the body. Moderate protein intake is still the ideal diet.

[kamikenze]

Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.

Do you not find that your energy levels are lower with high fat diets?

I am currently doing a keto diet. In my case, I noticed that my energy levels were lower than when I was in a balanced diet. However, with a modified keto diet called the TKD, wherein carbs are ingested prior and after a workout, energy were at par with when I was on a balanced diet.

[stevem77]

In my opinion, having a high protein diet is not advisable. Why? Because, the excess protein will just be converted into glucose. This will eventually be stored as fat if not used by the body. Moderate protein intake is still the ideal diet.

All carbs, fats and protein are converted into glucose as this is what the body uses for energy. Too much of anything will lead to it being stored as fat.

The reason that i am reducing my protein intake is because of the health benefits not because i believe it will make me fat.

[stevem77]

I am currently doing a keto diet. In my case, I noticed that my energy levels were lower than when I was in a balanced diet. However, with a modified keto diet called the TKD, wherein carbs are ingested prior and after a workout, energy were at par with when I was on a balanced diet.


In my opinion keto diets are a waste of time and are harmful for your health. I dont beleive cutting out any key nutrients should be done if you care about your health. Carbs are your bodys primary source of energy and at least a moderate amount is needed.

[determined4000]

Once protein needs are met, adding calories in the form of carbs does a better job since protein has a pretty bad energy turnover ratio .

Could you please eplain
seriously
I am interested in the energy turnover

[gekkoboy14]

In my opinion keto diets are a waste of time and are harmful for your health. I dont beleive cutting out any key nutrients should be done if you care about your health. Carbs are your bodys primary source of energy and at least a moderate amount is needed.

what carbs WOULD you include that are key to your health?

[determined4000]

what carbs WOULD you include that are key to your health?

vegetables fruits, whole grains

[Blindead]

Carbs are a non-essential nutrient. If you do keto with low-carb vegetables and either a multi or another type of vit/mineral supplement, there's nothing wrong.

[Miranda]

Could you please eplain
seriously
I am interested in the energy turnover

unless you're in ketosis (and even then, to a lesser extent), several organs require glucose.

no carbs/depleted glycogen = glucose will be made out of (dietary/stored) amino acids. also from the glycerol in triglycerides but the amount converted is very small. you'd need to burn an insane amount of fat per day to get enough glucose that way.

if you were to do a protein sparing fast (basicaly all protein and little else) or the like and the lower your calories, roughly half of the protein would be used for glucose synthesis.


Carbs are a non-essential nutrient.

non-essential as in the body can make glucose from other sources. it is always required to some extent though.

that's no reason not to eat carbs per se. got to eat something :)

[paulieGB]

Carbs are a non-essential nutrient. If you do keto with low-carb vegetables and either a multi or another type of vit/mineral supplement, there's nothing wrong.

If they wern't esential you wouldn't need to take a multi to get the vitamins/minerals that they have.
Multi's are not essential if you eat healthy.

[gekkoboy14]

vegetables fruits, whole grains

veggies, fruit yes.. bread not so much

[titebuoy]

vegetables fruits, whole grains

you do know that vegetables/fruits can and are consumed during keto

[Jay Rawd]

In my opinion keto diets are a waste of time and are harmful for your health. I dont beleive cutting out any key nutrients should be done if you care about your health. Carbs are your bodys primary source of energy and at least a moderate amount is needed.
The body's physiological need for carbohydrates is ZERO grams a day.

Keto will not ruin your health.

Will some people lose muscle on keto? Yes. Insulin sensitive individuals do poorly on ketogenic diets. Aesthetically, keto diets are a waste of time for them.

But on a health standpoint, keto does nothing to wreck your health. Show me anything that shows that humans NEED carbohydrates.

[Jay Rawd]

If they wern't esential you wouldn't need to take a multi to get the vitamins/minerals that they have.
Multi's are not essential if you eat healthy.
It's not the carbs that have the minerals and vitamins, it's specific foods.

[determined4000]

you do know that vegetables/fruits can and are consumed during keto

the question was what carbs are good for health?
Are they not?????
There was no Keto reference in the question or my answer

[determined4000]

unless you're in ketosis (and even then, to a lesser extent), several organs require glucose.

no carbs/depleted glycogen = glucose will be made out of (dietary/stored) amino acids. also from the glycerol in triglycerides but the amount converted is very small. you'd need to burn an insane amount of fat per day to get enough glucose that way.

if you were to do a protein sparing fast (basicaly all protein and little else) or the like and the lower your calories, roughly half of the protein would be used for glucose synthesis.


So you are saying basically your body just needs more energy (calories) for the protein to become usable energy, not that it will be stored as fat.

[lift.iron]

from my understanding, animal protein leads to osteoporosis because humans do not have the digestive enzyme called uricase that is needed to break down uric acid that is found in all meat. so the body leeches minerals from other parts of our body (mostly bone) to help dilute the uric acid and prevent toxicity.

plant protein, on the other hand, does not contain uric acid. I have never heard of osteoporosis in a high protein plant-based diet.

osteoporosis is the #1 health problem assosiated with a vegan diet TRY DRINKING MILK

[lift.iron]

moderate being about 80g - 100g.

thats great for a normal person BUT going to the gym and tearing the Sh*T out of your muscles 5 times a week coupled with cardio is NOT normal and would require a ton more than that to repair and without it you go catabolic and your body will break its self down to make it

[lift.iron]

In my opinion, having a high protein diet is not advisable. Why? Because, the excess protein will just be converted into glucose. This will eventually be stored as fat if not used by the body. Moderate protein intake is still the ideal diet.

tell that to ronnie colman or juy cutler or lee haney or dexter jackson or any other of the WORLDS TOP PRO BB who take in about 400g a day!!!

[Jay Rawd]

tell that to ronnie colman or juy cutler or lee haney or dexter jackson or any other of the WORLDS TOP PRO BB who take in about 400g a day!!!
People who don't take steroids also don't have the added benefit of increased protein synthesis.

For a natural lifter, excess protein just gets converted to glucose. It doesn't help in adding muscle mass. Plus, overdoing protein can cause you to burn excess calories, which is not wanted when trying to build lean mass. That's why more protein is better on a cut, not a bulk. 1 g/lb. is pretty much enough for bulking.

[Blindead]

Yes, excess protein turns into glucose. So do excess carbs. Excess calories turn into fat. If you're not eating above maintenance you aren't going to gain weight. If you're eating above maintenance 200 calories from protein and 200g of carbs are pretty much the same, assuming your basic needs are met.

[Miranda]

So you are saying basically your body just needs more energy (calories) for the protein to become usable energy, not that it will be stored as fat.

usable as in? not one pathway works 100%. several aminos can be and are used for glucose synthesis even if you eat carbohydrates.

protein that is converted to glucose can eventually become stored fat.

[adil2916]

Proteins enter the circulation as amino acids. the main function is repair and growth of the body and to form proteins required for normal human functioning..as present in muscles,enzymes, in blood etc...
they would only be used as a source of energy if the body has no supply of carbs and fats.

moreover there is no storage process of proteins in the body. the body will use whatever is needed and the rest will be eliminated so adjust your protein intake by ur age, activities, weight, training and goal. make sure there is a balance between the input and output. in this way you will get fully benefitted by ur proteins in diet

[Obnoxious123]

tell that to ronnie colman or juy cutler or lee haney or dexter jackson or any other of the WORLDS TOP PRO BB who take in about 400g a day!!!

seriously...i would take diet information from them 12 times over before i took any from someone who isn't very muscular...

i am confused a lot in this section.

personally i take in about 330g of protein a day...doing keto (cutting...well recomp :D)

[Emma-Leigh]

seriously...i would take diet information from them 12 times over before i took any from someone who isn't very muscular...

i am confused a lot in this section.

personally i take in about 330g of protein a day...doing keto (cutting...well recomp :D)
ermmm... you might want to rethink the 'looking to Ronnie for diet advice'....

A pro-bodybuilder with good genetics + mucho in the way of steroid/exogenous hormone help =/= your every day human bloke. ;)

As it has been said above - excess protein =/= better gains... Once your protein requirements are filled the amino acids are seen as just another 'fuel' source to your body...

[Emma-Leigh]

Proteins enter the circulation as amino acids. the main function is repair and growth of the body and to form proteins required for normal human functioning..as present in muscles,enzymes, in blood etc...
they would only be used as a source of energy if the body has no supply of carbs and fats.

moreover there is no storage process of proteins in the body. the body will use whatever is needed and the rest will be eliminated so adjust your protein intake by ur age, activities, weight, training and goal. make sure there is a balance between the input and output. in this way you will get fully benefitted by ur proteins in diet
There is a small capacity for storage of proteins in the body via the amino acid pools (intramuscular and in the blood)... [note: On a 'bigger' scale - lean muscle also acts as a 'store' of sorts for other obligate proteins... as such it can and will be 'drawn on' if diet does not reach requirements].

Anyway --> once a.a pools are filled you don't just 'pee out' the excess protein. The amino acids can be deaminated and enter other cellular pathways:

Amino acids, when deaminated, yield a-keto acids that, directly or via additional reactions, feed into the major metabolic pathways (e.g., Krebs Cycle). Fig. 26-11, p. 995, depicts the ultimate products of degradation of amino acid carbon skeletons.....

Amino acids are grouped into two classes, based on whether or not their carbon skeletons can be converted to glucose:
Glucogenic amino acids: Their carbon skeletons are degraded to pyruvate, or to one of the 4- or 5-carbon intermediates of Krebs Cycle that are precursors for gluconeogenesis. Glucogenic amino acids are the major carbon source for gluconeogenesis when glucose levels are low. They can also be catabolized for energy or converted to glycogen or fatty acids for energy storage.

Ketogenic amino acids: Their carbon skeletons are degraded to acetyl-CoA or acetoacetate. Acetyl CoA, and its precursor acetoacetate, cannot yield net production of oxaloacetate, the precursor for the gluconeogenesis pathway. For every 2-C acetyl residue entering Krebs Cycle, two carbon atoms leave as CO2. (For review, see notes on Krebs Cycle.) Carbon skeletons of ketogenic amino acids can be catabolized for energy in Krebs Cycle, or converted to ketone bodies or fatty acids. They cannot be converted to glucose.
^^
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem/MBWeb/mb2/part1/aacarbon.htm#glucket

And in pic form:
http://img.sparknotes.com/figures/9/94eebfc3ef3ec1b04fe8b91e5bfa1f1f/fig10.gif

[Obnoxious123]

yes but how would you know when your protein requirements are filled? you have no way of knowing...better to have more protein than not enough

and natural bb'ers take in a lot of protein too...check out layne norton.

[Emma-Leigh]

yes but how would you know when your protein requirements are filled? you have no way of knowing...better to have more protein than not enough

and natural bb'ers take in a lot of protein too...check out layne norton.
1. Protein requirements depend on age/ sex/ type of training/ total calorie intake and a lot of other things.

But they are far less than what most people think....

A few reads:
Dietary protein for athletes: from requirement to metabolic advantage (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17213878)

Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2006 Dec;31(6):647-54. Links
Dietary protein for athletes: from requirements to metabolic advantage.Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada. phillis@mcmaster.ca

The Dietary Reference Intakes (DRI) specify that the requirement for dietary protein for all individuals aged 19 y and older is 0.8 g protein.kg-1.d-1. This Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) is cited as adequate for all persons. This amount of protein would be considered by many athletes as the amount to be consumed in a single meal, particularly for strength-training athletes. There does exist, however, published data to suggest that individuals habitually performing resistance and (or) endurance exercise require more protein than their sedentary counterparts. The RDA values for protein are clearly set at "...the level of protein judged to be adequate... to meet the known nutrient needs for practically all healthy people...". The RDA covers protein losses with margins for inter-individual variability and protein quality; the notion of consumption of excess protein above these levels to cover increased needs owing to physical activity is not, however, given any credence. Notwithstanding, diet programs (i.e., energy restriction) espousing the virtue of high protein enjoy continued popularity. A number of well-controlled studies are now published in which "higher" protein diets have been shown to be effective in promoting weight reduction, particularly fat loss. The term "higher" refers to a diet that has people consuming more than the general populations' average intake of approximately 15% of energy from protein, e.g., as much as 30%-35%, which is within an Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Range (AMDR) as laid out in the DRIs. Of relevance to athletes and those in clinical practice is the fact that higher protein diets have quite consistently been shown to result in greater weight loss, greater fat loss, and preservation of lean mass as compared with "lower" protein diets. A framework for understanding dietary protein intake within the context of weight loss and athletic performance is laid out.

Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1400008)

J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75. Links
Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders.Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA.
School of Biomedical Sciences, Kent State University, Ohio 44242.

This randomized double-blind cross-over study assessed protein (PRO) requirements during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training and determined whether supplemental PRO intake (PROIN) enhanced muscle mass/strength gains. Twelve men [22.4 +/- 2.4 (SD) yr] received an isoenergetic PRO (total PROIN 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1) or carbohydrate (CHO; total PROIN 1.35 g.kg-1.day-1) supplement for 1 mo each during intensive (1.5 h/day, 6 days/wk) weight training. On the basis of 3-day nitrogen balance (NBAL) measurements after 3.5 wk on each treatment (8.9 +/- 4.2 and -3.4 +/- 1.9 g N/day, respectively), the PROIN necessary for zero NBAL (requirement) was 1.4-1.5 g.kg-1.day-1. The recommended intake (requirement + 2 SD) was 1.6-1.7 g.kg-1.day-1. However, strength (voluntary and electrically evoked) and muscle mass [density, creatinine excretion, muscle area (computer axial tomography scan), and biceps N content] gains were not different between diet treatments. These data indicate that, during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training, PRO needs are approximately 100% greater than current recommendations but that PROIN increases from 1.35 to 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1 do not enhance muscle mass/strength gains, at least during the 1st mo of training. Whether differential gains would occur with longer training remains to be determined.

Protein requirements and supplementation in strength sports (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212752)

Nutrition. 2004 Jul-Aug;20(7-8):689-95. Links
Protein requirements and supplementation in strength sports.Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. phillis@mcmaster.ca

Daily requirements for protein are set by the amount of amino acids that is irreversibly lost in a given day. Different agencies have set requirement levels for daily protein intakes for the general population; however, the question of whether strength-trained athletes require more protein than the general population is one that is difficult to answer. At a cellular level, an increased requirement for protein in strength-trained athletes might arise due to the extra protein required to support muscle protein accretion through elevated protein synthesis. Alternatively, an increased requirement for protein may come about in this group of athletes due to increased catabolic loss of amino acids associated with strength-training activities. A review of studies that have examined the protein requirements of strength-trained athletes, using nitrogen balance methodology, has shown a modest increase in requirements in this group. At the same time, several studies have shown that strength training, consistent with the anabolic stimulus for protein synthesis it provides, actually increases the efficiency of use of protein, which reduces dietary protein requirements. Various studies have shown that strength-trained athletes habitually consume protein intakes higher than required. A positive energy balance is required for anabolism, so a requirement for "extra" protein over and above normal values also appears not to be a critical issue for competitive athletes because most would have to be in positive energy balance to compete effectively. At present there is no evidence to suggest that supplements are required for optimal muscle growth or strength gain. Strength-trained athletes should consume protein consistent with general population guidelines, or 12% to 15% of energy from protein.

Protein requirements and recommendations for athletes: relevance of ivory tower arguments for practical recommendations (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17241913)

Clin Sports Med. 2007 Jan;26(1):17-36. Links
Protein requirements and recommendations for athletes: relevance of ivory tower arguments for practical recommendations.Tipton KD, Witard OC.
School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B29 5SA, United Kingdom. k.d.tipton@bham.ac.uk <k.d.tipton@bham.ac.uk>

Protein nutrition for athletes has long been a topic of interest. From the legendary Greek wrestler Milo--purported to eat copious amounts of beef during his five successive Olympic titles--to modern athletes consuming huge amounts of supplements, protein intake has been considered paramount. Recommendations for protein intake for athletes has not been without controversy, however. In general, scientific opinion on this controversy seems to divide itself into two camps--those who believe participation in exercise and sport increases the nutritional requirement for protein and those who believe protein requirements for athletes and exercising individuals are no different from the requirements for sedentary individuals. There seems to be evidence for both arguments. Although this issue may be scientifically relevant, from a practical perspective, the requirement for protein-as most often defined-may not be applicable to most athletes.


2. In case you didn't realise... you are not Layne Norton. ;)

[svrocket]

To the OP stevem77

I suggest you make yourself the experimental variable. Eat a low protein / high carb / ?? fat diet (or high plant protein diet) and workout hard for one year. Post your before and after pics.

There are "several" (I wouldn't say 'many') prominent vegetarian bodybuilders, seek them out. Not saying it's not possible, just that you are swimming against the current.

[Obnoxious123]

1. Protein requirements depend on age/ sex/ type of training/ total calorie intake and a lot of other things.

But they are far less than what most people think....


2. In case you didn't realise... you are not Layne Norton. ;)

yes so why would i risk myself taking too little protein rather than be content and have more than i need?

in case you didn't realiZe, i am 17 years old and i'm sure ronnie, and layne started out taking very little protein to bodybuild, right?

give me a break

[Emma-Leigh]

yes so why would i risk myself taking too little protein rather than be content and have more than i need?

in case you didn't realiZe, i am 17 years old and i'm sure ronnie, and layne started out taking very little protein to bodybuild, right?

give me a break
I case you didn't realise from the title of this section - 'because Ronnie does it' doesn't really 'cut it' in this section.....

What evidence do you have on which to base your feelings on why you NEED 2 x your weight (#) in protein?

[Obnoxious123]

I case you didn't realise from the title of this section - 'because Ronnie does it' doesn't really 'cut it' in this section.....

What evidence do you have on which to base your feelings on why you NEED 2 x your weight (#) in protein?

i never said you needed it. i just said that i would rather have more than enough, then not enough.

wouldn't you?

[Jay Rawd]

yes so why would i risk myself taking too little protein rather than be content and have more than i need?

in case you didn't realiZe, i am 17 years old and i'm sure ronnie, and layne started out taking very little protein to bodybuild, right?

give me a break
If you read Layne's FAQ, he says he eats 215 grams of protein (1 g/lb. bodyweight) when bulking and 250 grams of protein (1.25g/lb. of his lean mass which is 200 lb) when cutting.

Doesn't seem too close to Ronnie Coleman territory to me.

[Emma-Leigh]

If you read Layne's FAQ, he says he eats 215 grams of protein (1 g/lb. bodyweight) when bulking and 250 grams of protein (1.25g/lb. of his lean mass which is 200 lb) when cutting.

Doesn't seem too close to Ronnie Coleman territory to me.

Yup.... To quote from his FAQ:

On Protein Intake:
Interviewer: You mentioned that no studies have ever proven that more than 1g of protein/lb of bodyweight is any more effective... but do you think that this could possible be because of the lack of intensity, and or volume that the studied subjects involved? I just ask, because in most studies it seems to me that it is hard and rare for them to have a group of people who train like serious/hardcore bodybuilders or strength athletes.

Actually in most strength athletes they find they use protein more effectively and thus 'need' less. However, the real question is does eating more provide metabolic benefits? That has yet to be seen. Most of these studies have looked at nitrogen balance which only tells you whether a person is anabolic or catabolic and doesn't really give you an idea to the degree they are and it also doesn't let you know what tissues are retaining or losing the nitrogen. The other method is whole body amino acid fluxes, essentially using 'labeled' amino acids isotope and looking at what tissues they flux into and out of. The problem with both of these is they do not account for recycling of the amino acids within various tissues, nor do they take into account that tissues like the gut turnover very rapidly and so much of the whole body flux of amino acids is from the gut. Skeletal muscle turns over comparatively slowly and thus has much smaller effects on whole body amino acid fluxes. For example, the researchers who concluded casien is better than whey looked at whole body amino acid fluxes and concluded that casein reduced breakdown better than whey... BUT THEY LOOKED AT WHOLE BODY PROTEIN BREAKDOWN, which tells you very little about the breakdown occurring specifically in skeletal muscle. In order to get good information you have to look at fractional rates of synthesis and degradation within the skeletal muscle which 1) is much more difficult 2) more expensive 3) requires more skill and 4) requires a biopsy. Thus it is often not used in studies.

In our lab we are measure fractional synthesis rates. Two main questions we are looking at is 1) how much protein at a meal does it take to maximize protein synthesis? 2) how long does the effect last 3) how long after an initial meal can you trigger synthesis again.
This will likely be the crux of my PhD thesis. As far as your question, we simply don't know as of now.


On the need for Protein Shakes/ Optimal amount of Protein / Whole Food vs Whey:
Interviewer: Layne, what is your take on omitting protein shakes and bars from daily consumption? True enough, most all powders are pre-disgested, manufactured dietary supplements, but I think the value of them cannot be denied. After all, there is the convenience factor of them, plus proteins have come a long way from the 90's, as they had from the 80's, and so on. I think the biggest thing for me is wanting to include them for these two reasons:
1. I eat eight times a day. At the suggestion of someone else, I cut out protein supplements (at least for this first month to see how my body takes to it), and am looking entirely to whole foods to get my protein intake. The problem with that is that eating eight whole food meals a day is not really agreeing with my stomach, especially considering that I now have to eat more calorie dense meals. So, for me, it is a big help convenience-wise, because I can time everything much better, AND get my protein requirement. And for the record, I have set my protein ratio at 2g of protein per 1 lb. of bodyweight for a grand total of 360g daily. 45g spaced out over 8 meals does not sound so bad, but considering that I do not always meet this requisite, protein shakes help to fill in the remainder. My shakes normally ran 70g protein.

2. While I understand the importance of covering all bases by using whole food to make the best of varying amino acid profiles, do protein shakes (certain products, anyway... my regulars were these type) not have specifically engineered profiles that cannot be had through regular food, hence the importance of having them in the first place?

I ask you because you are a highly regarded natural here on MD.com, and from reading your posts, you have a very sizeable knowledge base, and I am always willing to learn more. My apologies for being long on words with my questioning, but that is just how I am.

Layne: no need to cut out protein shakes... unless one has a lactalbumin sensitivity and then they should be limited....
1. I think your protein intake is too high. I have literally spent the last 8 years of my life studying protein and more recently my studies at the graduate school level have been spent studying protein synthesis and metabolism in depth. There is just no evidence that anything over 1g/lb is beneficial for anabolism and there is evidence that going too high can actually reduce the anabolic response. I would mitigate your intake to 1.5g/lb. The problem with many bodybuilders is that we have this "more is better" or "all or nothing" ideals. If increased protein is good, then a TON MUST BE GREAT! Another example is vitamins. If you are deficient in a vitamin it can limit growth, but taking a ton of vitamins isn't going to enhance growth and yet many bodybuilders take absurd amount of vitamins like vitamin C. What they don't realize is that by taking too much of certain vitamins and minerals you can actually get many negative effects and in the case of vitamin C, if you take too much it can actually act as a pro-oxidant instead of an anti-oxidant. More is not better, better is better.

2. Shakes are not 'needed' per say but there is also no reason to cut them out. As far as having profiles that are better than whole foods, whey has probably the best profile in terms of bioavailability and leucine content and there is strong evidence that leucine is the only amino acid that can independently stimulate protein synthesis

[See attached]

[Obnoxious123]

okay - but according to this thread layne takes too much protein.

and you didn't reply to my other post...

[Emma-Leigh]

okay - but according to this thread layne takes too much protein.

and you didn't reply to my other post...
Where have I said Layne is taking in too much protein (~ 1 x body weight is what I have said all along...??? I agree that slightly more is needed if dieting - about 1.25-1.5g/ pound....)?

But, yes, according to research ~1.2-1.6/ 1.8 per kg is what is now considered 'adequate' to meet the needs of strength and endurance trained athletes.... Slightly more if dieting.

Which other post?

[Obnoxious123]

Where have I said Layne is taking in too much protein (~ 1 x body weight is what I have said all along...??? I agree that slightly more is needed if dieting - about 1.25-1.5g/ pound....)?

But, yes, according to research ~1.2-1.6/ 1.8 per kg is what is now considered 'adequate' to meet the needs of strength and endurance trained athletes.... Slightly more if dieting.

Which other post?

according to the thread, around 100g is moderate - the first time you posted was to me.

you didn't reply to this one

i never said you needed it. i just said that i would rather have more than enough, then not enough.

wouldn't you?

[Emma-Leigh]

according to the thread, around 100g is moderate - the first time you posted was to me.

you didn't reply to this one
1. 100g is 'moderate' for the general population.. Generally speaking, most people relate to 12-15% of dietary intake as 'adequate' protein. Usually figures of ~ 0.8g/kg are quoted. So for a bloke of ~ 70-75kg if he were an 'everyday joe' on 2400 cals - you are looking at 70-90g... or for a sportsman on 3000 cals - that would be 90-115g.

2. I would rather have an appropriate amount... and to quote Layne again:

There is just no evidence that anything over 1g/lb is beneficial for anabolism and there is evidence that going too high can actually reduce the anabolic response. I would mitigate your intake to 1.5g/lb. The problem with many bodybuilders is that we have this "more is better" or "all or nothing" ideals. If increased protein is good, then a TON MUST BE GREAT!........ More is not better, better is better.

[Obnoxious123]

to be straight - i never disagreed with you, you just came off like you were attacking me. i cannot disagree with science, i would like to adjust my diet after i take my mitotropin to around those needs and see what happens - but i am doing keto for mito.

what are your views on keto?

(pm if you want, don't want to de rail thread)

[Pablo_Suarez]

Tips:

- A diet high in protein in healthy or at least is not bad. Whenever you eat healthy foods

- Diets high in protein are expensive

- Athletes need more sedentary people, but without exaggeration

Conclusion
If you take a lot of calories with 1.5-2 g / kg, may be sufficient
In definition, 2 to 3 g / kgr

greetings

[Jay Rawd]

okay - but according to this thread layne takes too much protein.

and you didn't reply to my other post...
Really? Because you were comparing Ronnie Coleman's protein intake with Layne's when there is really no comparison.

[determined4000]

When taking into account thermogenisis and the fact that protein has the highest energy requirement for digestion
does this mean it also taxes the digestive organs the most?

[Obnoxious123]

Really? Because you were comparing Ronnie Coleman's protein intake with Layne's when there is really no comparison.

i did not compare them at all...

[tkxii]

yea a high protein diet isn' necessary, as Tim Vanorden says, proteins are the tools to build muscle, but enYmes from foods are the tools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae-dlHOmwk4
he eats very little protein, and doesn't lose muscle mass, but he is only a long distance runner, but still, it's amazing

[Jay Rawd]

yea a high protein diet isn' necessary, as Tim Vanorden says, proteins are the tools to build muscle, but enYmes from foods are the tools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae-dlHOmwk4
he eats very little protein, and doesn't lose muscle mass, but he is only a long distance runner, but still, it's amazing
Long distance runners might actually need more protein since they burn way more calories than your average person.

[nathanbailey]

yea a high protein diet isn' necessary, as Tim Vanorden says, proteins are the tools to build muscle, but enYmes from foods are the tools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae-dlHOmwk4
he eats very little protein, and doesn't lose muscle mass, but he is only a long distance runner, but still, it's amazing

that guy looks like a twig i dont know what muscle mass you are referring to???

[Opies]

I haven't read any studies, but I'm going to say the minimum requirements to build muscle are:

-Enough protein to be in positive nitrogen balance (this will vary from day to day and person to person)
-Enough calories to remain in an anabolic state a majority of the time.
-Enough overload to stimulate a growth response

[Jay Rawd]

As carbs go up, protein goes down. So if you eat alot of carbs you don't need to eat as much protein.

[Dr. Horse]

Suprised this review hasn't popped up (or did I miss it?)

http://www.jissn.com/content/3/1/7


Far from the last word, but a jumping off point.

[barbarian1543]

When lifting HEAVY weights or training hard, I have noticed faster recovery by increasing protein

Edit: I meant increasing protein to 1.5g/lb. I was doing 1g/lb before

[Jay Rawd]

When lifting HEAVY weights or training hard, I have noticed faster recovery by increasing protein

Edit: I meant increasing protein to 1.5g/lb. I was doing 1g/lb before
Some people like extreme ectomorph hardgainers may get added benefit.

It's done little to nothing for me. I get way more recovery from either increasing carbs or fat (while keeping calories the same).

I was eating 2.6g/lb of protein at one time (around 50% of my calories came from protein). The recovery was terrible and I couldn't even do baby weights (I'm talking some 135 lb. barbell squats without wheezing). Once I upped the carbs my recovery went through the roof.

[NotStandingBy]

Adding my post here so I can subscribe to this thread. I will say this thread definitely refined my understanding of protein.

It is true, as I noticed though, during my training, that more is not more, less is more especially for an ectomorph like me (as your average Asian).

The more carb you eat, the less protein you need, generally speaking as Jay Rawd put it. So an average 40/40/20 diet is good for me and your average folks. Good ol' balanced diet.

[adil2916]

There is a small capacity for storage of proteins in the body via the amino acid pools (intramuscular and in the blood)... [note: On a 'bigger' scale - lean muscle also acts as a 'store' of sorts for other obligate proteins... as such it can and will be 'drawn on' if diet does not reach requirements].

Anyway --> once a.a pools are filled you don't just 'pee out' the excess protein. The amino acids can be deaminated and enter other cellular pathways:

^^
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem/MBWeb/mb2/part1/aacarbon.htm#glucket

And in pic form:
http://img.sparknotes.com/figures/9/94eebfc3ef3ec1b04fe8b91e5bfa1f1f/fig10.gif



I would like to add some more to make it clear that what is actually meant by storage of proteins or STORAGE FORMS, fat or carbs in the body..

"UNLIKE FATS AND CARBS, AMINO ACIDS ARE NOT STORED BY THE BODY, NO PROTEIN EXISTS WHOSE SOLE FUNCTION IS TO MAINTAIN A SUPPLY OF AMINO ACIDS FOR FUTURE USE. ANY AMINO ACIDS IN EXCESS OF THE BIOSYNTHETIC NEEDS OF THE CELL ARE APIDLY DEGRADED" .... taken from LIPPINCOTT ILLUSTRATED REVIEW OF BIOCHEMISTRY page 243

sO THERE IS NO CONTINUOUS SUPPLY OF AMINO ACIDS FROM ANY TISSUE AS WE CAN GET FROM ADIPOSE TISSUE(FATS) AND GLYCOGEN(CARBS) RESERVES IN OUR BODY.

THE AMINO ACID POOL IS VERY SMALL. IT CONTAINS ONLY 100g OF AMINO ACIDS...75% OF THIS POOL ARE RECAPTURED FOR THE FROMATION OF new PROTEIN. 25% IS UTILIZED IN THE FORMATION OF NEUROTRANSMITTERS, PORPHYRINS, CREATINE, PYRAMIDINES ETC. Its amino acids can be used for energy by the process of GLUCONEOGENESIS but amino acid pool cannot be called as storage tissue/form of protein because when the need arises it cant supply a continuous source of amino acids for energy.

In contrast the adipose tissue can supply fat for energy over many hours. This is why human being can cross the English channel by swimming it all the way

[Jay Rawd]

Adding my post here so I can subscribe to this thread. I will say this thread definitely refined my understanding of protein.

It is true, as I noticed though, during my training, that more is not more, less is more especially for an ectomorph like me (as your average Asian).

The more carb you eat, the less protein you need, generally speaking as Jay Rawd put it. So an average 40/40/20 diet is good for me and your average folks. Good ol' balanced diet.
40/40/20 is more for cutting. If you eat 40% Protein calories when bulking at 20x bodyweight, you'll be eating 2 grams per lb. in protein. That's too high. I'd lower it to 1 g/lb. and replace the rest with carbs. So 60% Carbs, 20% Protein, and 20% Fat is more ideal for bulking.

[TaoistWarrior]

In prison, they supplement their low dietary protein in the laundry room when no one is around

I'm gonna need to see some studies in peer-reviewed journals to confirm this man. Sounds like broscience.

[borlef]

No. Most literature shows you need 1g/kg, but there is no reason not to be safe and get double that amount, plus it helps to get the extra calories, and whey is cheap. Like I said, the calcium loss is way overblown. Unless you are a 60 year old woman who doesn't have any calcium in their diet, it will not effect you. Plus I guarantee you anyone supplementing protein, and taking in 250g+ per day is also taking a multivitamin and drinking milk. If the calcium loss you speak of was as rapid as it's said to be, people like the inuit (eskimos) who eat a diet based almost purely on meat, would all have osteoporosis, yet that isn't the case.


I haven't. I've noticed drinking a lot of water makes you piss a lot

Definitely not true about the calcium loss. I will find a couple studies I read about this with all the scientific evidence, I'll find it and link here when I'm not too lazy. But it's more the fact that the source of the protein is acidifying. Meat is extremely acidifying for which calcium is leached to neutralize.

[TaoistWarrior]

Definitely not true about the calcium loss. I will find a couple studies I read about this with all the scientific evidence, I'll find it and link here when I'm not too lazy. But it's more the fact that the source of the protein is acidifying. Meat is extremely acidifying for which calcium is leached to neutralize.

Weight-bearing exercise like lifting strengthens bones. Perhaps it has a mitigating effect on calcium loss.

[tenreps]

I am curently on a diet of PROTIEN,VEGGIES AND FRUIT for cutting.YES i know it will be a slower cut,but i am assured that i will be getting my nutrents that i need.I have done the KETO diet and was successfull with it. CONSUMING the good fat gave me energy,but not as much as the veggies and fruit. AND also for protien YES 1/G PER POUND.

[artyartea]

Anything in excess is bad for you're body. Excess of protein becomes amonia and its quite nasty for kidneys. Google it and be amazed! Those are my 2cents. Ratios like 30% protein, 50-55% carbs and 20-25% is the healthiest for me.

[Emma-Leigh]

If a diet is correctly balanced and not excessive in proteins then the most recent research out suggests that moderate protein/ higher protein diets do not leach calcium and will have a positive impact on bone health.

The keys to maintaing bone health are really:
1. diet appropriate in protein
2. diet appropriately balanced with alkaline foods
- green vegetables,
- alkaline fruits,
- alkaline seeds/ nuts,
- monounsaturated fats (olive oil, avocado),
3. diet that is calcium rich
4. lower sodium (balanced in sodium/ potassium)
5. weight-bearing exercise
6. limit alcohol and don't smoke
7. maintain a healthy weight (not too thin)
8. have good parents ;)

[UCONN_CSCS]

Lol, it's kind of funny how long this thread has gone on. All these studies taken out of context testing people who either are untrained or have some abnormal qualities.

The body is quite capable of handling quite a bit of protein. Whether it is being used for muscle repair, DNA or energy it's still being used. If you aren't ruining your kidneys in other ways you should be fine. As for bone loss if you are weight training with minimal essential load you will retain bone density well.

Now I'm not saying anyone NEEDS 2g or protien per lb body weight. Honestly the average person will do just fine with .8g/kg (higher for athletes) but the reason body builders may go higher is because they need a certain calorie intake, but dont want the fat or carbs, so the calories have to go somewhere. If you are having a 400g+ protein diet you are probably fat and just consuming too many calories in general, or having pretty much no fat or carb.

[Simmo0508]

350-400g daily here :)

But really, the term "high protein" is relative to the person. What's high to one person, is perhaps moderate to another.

Do what works best for you, your goal and your training demands. That's all you need.

[YoungEx20]

Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?

Mind answering the question? I would honestly love to know the answer to this one, was always curious about it.

[Emma-Leigh]

Mind answering the question? I would honestly love to know the answer to this one, was always curious about it.
Because, contrary to popular bb.com myth 1003438975: "you needz of zee protein, bro!!!!!" the body does NOT require the amounts as thought.

What you DO need is:
1. enough calories
2. correct training
3. enough protein to meet obligate requirements (as discussed above)
4. enough protein to meet the additional requirement of growth (which is far less than people think)

If you think that MOST natty blokes after their first year of training (noobie gains can be seen in the first year - so that is not really a good indication of continued growth rate) you will be looking at ~ 10-15 # LEAN mass/ YEAR (~ 5 kg).

~ 1# lean tissue/ month....
~ 445g protein/ month

In a 30 day month - that is about 14-15g/ day....

You could get by drinking an additional glass and a half of milk PWO. ;)

[AndrewWard123]

Emma... You make Australia proud everytime you post :)

Love your work!

[FLEX_09]

1. 100g is 'moderate' for the general population.. Generally speaking, most people relate to 12-15% of dietary intake as 'adequate' protein. Usually figures of ~ 0.8g/kg are quoted. So for a bloke of ~ 70-75kg if he were an 'everyday joe' on 2400 cals - you are looking at 70-90g... or for a sportsman on 3000 cals - that would be 90-115g.

2. I would rather have an appropriate amount... and to quote Layne again:

haha love it! true aussie! ;)

[FLEX_09]

I would much rather a nice piece of steak or chicken to get my calories up then a carb or fat source. Thats the only reason I would eat ample amounts of protein.

[pink378]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd
Once protein needs are met, adding calories in the form of carbs does a better job since protein has a pretty bad energy turnover ratio .


Could you please eplain
seriously
I am interested in the energy turnover

100% of carbs are turned into glucose
15% of protein can be turned into glucose, if needed
1-2% of fat can be turned into glucose, if needed

[patkoch]

80-100 grams a day is certainly enough to meet minimal requirements but is absolutely not optimal if your goal is maximizing muscle growth.

I think that that is a lie. You actually need less protein while you are bulking then when you are cutting as when you are cutting more protein in your diet will be expended for energy. The protein craze is a myth for the protein industry and even the usda. Animal protein is converted into acid in your body and calcium is needed to buffer it. Three servings of dairy a day, a couple small servings of meat (3 0z a serving) and a ton of plants should be enough protein to grow muscles. In my experience it has been the carbohydrate to protein ratio pre and post workout that haas really accelerated gains. I have gained a good amounts of muscle on about 115 to 130 grams of protein a day, with high intake of complex carbohydrates, plant proteins, and unsaturated fats. Calorie in vs calorie out remember!

[imccarthy]

I think that that is a lie. You actually need less protein while you are bulking then when you are cutting as when you are cutting more protein in your diet will be expended for energy. The protein craze is a myth for the protein industry and even the usda. Animal protein is converted into acid in your body and calcium is needed to buffer it. Three servings of dairy a day, a couple small servings of meat (3 0z a serving) and a ton of plants should be enough protein to grow muscles. In my experience it has been the carbohydrate to protein ratio pre and post workout that haas really accelerated gains. I have gained a good amounts of muscle on about 115 to 130 grams of protein a day, with high intake of complex carbohydrates, plant proteins, and unsaturated fats. Calorie in vs calorie out remember!

Unless you weigh under 100 pounds, in no way is 80-100 grams of protein enough to optimize nitrogen balance when bulking or cutting.

[determined4000]

Is there a point at which too much protein can be detrimental to health (not taking into account weight loss/gain)? Obviously if you have a pre-existing kidney condition it could be harmful, but what if no current problem exists. Some say yes, others no. If so, what is the safe threshold?

[Dr. Horse]

Is there a point at which too much protein can be detrimental to health (not taking into account weight loss/gain)? Obviously if you have a pre-existing kidney condition it could be harmful, but what if no current problem exists. Some say yes, others no. If so, what is the safe threshold?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=116740551

[determined4000]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=116740551

yes you could post this answer to every single question posed on any forum/thread

Does anyone else have any opinions/experience/facts/ideas?

[Dr. Horse]

yes you could post this answer to every single question posed on any forum/thread

That's the plan.

Give a man a fish... well you know how it goes.

[determined4000]

That's the plan.

Give a man a fish... well you know how it goes.

my question comes because I was already reading this
http://www.humankinetics.com/eJournalMedia/pdfs/5642.pdf

[SDC77]

Give a man a fish... well you know how it goes.

and you have 20g of lean protein... which isn't enough because you need 1.5g/BW to f*cking grow111!!!oneonehundredeleven

[determined4000]

http://www.humankinetics.com/eJournalMedia/pdfs/5642.pdf

the article seems to suggest there is a maximum protein intake level
I don't fully understand if they are saying anything higher than this is detrimental if no pre-existing problems exist.
they use the word "tolerate" but don't say what this means and what would happen beyond this point

[Emma-Leigh]

do some reading on the impact of protein and high acid load on the body over time.... < there is some evidence to suggest that it is for this reason that very high protein diets are not recommended.

[determined4000]

do some reading on the impact of protein and high acid load on the body over time.... < there is some evidence to suggest that it is for this reason that very high protein diets are not recommended.

thank you
I will look into high acid load.

[adil2916]

too much of everything isnt stored as fat.

[Emma-Leigh]

too much of everything isnt stored as fat.
:confused: you confuse me?

[determined4000]

do some reading on the impact of protein and high acid load on the body over time.... < there is some evidence to suggest that it is for this reason that very high protein diets are not recommended.

Most of the stuff I read seemed to be about bone health in terms of the high acid load.
Is this correct, or do you know of other implications?

[Emma-Leigh]

Most of the stuff I read seemed to be about bone health in terms of the high acid load.
Is this correct, or do you know of other implications?

http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020P438.htm
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/138/2/413S
http://www.saeure-basen-forum.de/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=19

[machx]

Most of the stuff I read seemed to be about bone health in terms of the high acid load.
Is this correct, or do you know of other implications?

This is what I found as well - also the effects on kidney function but this was mostly for people with existing kidney problems. However I'm going to guess that it isn't good for the kidneys anyways.

[machx]

http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020P438.htm
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/138/2/413S
http://www.saeure-basen-forum.de/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=19

Thank you for those links - the Acid calculator is especially useful.

Do you know if you can assuage the effects of the net acid balance by eating fruits and vegetables in proportion to protein intake? Actually, I know you can fix the balance but my question is does this nullify the ill-effects or do they still stand? I guess I'm trying to ask can you make yourself stop stinking by dumping cologne on?

[RealMenDeadLift]

:confused: you confuse me?

he may mean not all excess calories in a 24 hour period automatically become fat which is true, or maybe he is an idiot and I am giving him too much credit, perhaps he can elaborate on what he meant lol

[determined4000]

http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020P438.htm
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/138/2/413S
http://www.saeure-basen-forum.de/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=19

what would a good acid-base # for the calculatorbe?
0? = neutral

Thanks again

[Emma-Leigh]

Thank you for those links - the Acid calculator is especially useful.
Welcome. :)

There is also a good table here CLICK (http://www.saeure-basen-forum.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=39&lang=en) which gives you a good list of foods. And another form/ more info HERE (click again) (http://basica.de/content/e543/e575/index_en.html)


Do you know if you can assuage the effects of the net acid balance by eating fruits and vegetables in proportion to protein intake? Actually, I know you can fix the balance but my question is does this nullify the ill-effects or do they still stand? I guess I'm trying to ask can you make yourself stop stinking by dumping cologne on?
LOL! :p

Luckily, unlike sticky persons who can't drown themselves in bad spray to hide their stench, you can actually correct acid load by adding more alkali/ neutral food to your diet....

The easiest thing to do is to add vege (and the healthiest too) but you could also add sups or powders like potassium salt (normal salt can have an effect too)... Glutamine powder (being an alkali a.a.) also has the ability to decrease acid load.... Some suggest other things like baking soda too (which... ermmm... tastes like crap :o and isn't all that effective anyway).

Personally though - I would prefer to simply add vege (spinach is good - high potassium)... a few raisins would work too (high potassium)... or a dried fig or two (high potassium and high calcium.... and I love figs especially dried figs... or figs with stinky cheeses... :o )... if you didn't want to add something with that many cals..... ermmmm.... how much do you like.... parsley? :o :p


what would a good acid-base # for the calculatorbe?
0? = neutral

Thanks again
I would aim for about that - doesn't have to be exact... but it is better to be closer to 0, esp if engaged in a lot of exercise....

[TheWaffleIron]

I'd say that higher protein intakes are needed when cutting, not so much when bulking.

Much easier to be in a positive nitrogen balance when overconsuming calories.

Yes.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=311092161&postcount=13


yes but how would you know when your protein requirements are filled? you have no way of knowing...better to have more protein than not enough

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=297242231&postcount=2
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=282463311&postcount=48


i never said you needed it. i just said that i would rather have more than enough, then not enough.

wouldn't you?

Yes. But, 400 g/day is excessive.

[Jay Rawd]

Yes.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=311092161&postcount=13



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=297242231&postcount=2
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=282463311&postcount=48



Yes. But, 400 g/day is excessive.
B-b-b-b-b-but, you're just a pubmed ninja who doesn't compete!

[Dr. Horse]

B-b-b-b-b-but, you're just a pubmed ninja who doesn't compete!

Yeah, every study he posts is from the same source too! The government !!! Talk about biased information!!

[Jay Rawd]

Yeah, every study he posts is from the same source too! The government !!! Talk about biased information!!
It's all a conspiracy to keep us from getting huge and taking them down!

Keep fighting the good fight Dexter Jackson!!!!!!!!!!!

[determined4000]

Welcome. :)

There is also a good table here CLICK (http://www.saeure-basen-forum.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=39&lang=en) which gives you a good list of foods. And another form/ more info HERE (click again) (http://basica.de/content/e543/e575/index_en.html)


any idea what whey would be?
I mean a protein isolate, not what I am assuming they have listed as it has a negative balance.

[machx]

Welcome. :)

There is also a good table here which gives you a good list of foods. And another form/ more info

Luckily, unlike sticky persons who can't drown themselves in bad spray to hide their stench, you can actually correct acid load by adding more alkali/ neutral food to your diet....

The easiest thing to do is to add vege (and the healthiest too) but you could also add sups or powders like potassium salt (normal salt can have an effect too)... Glutamine powder (being an alkali a.a.) also has the ability to decrease acid load.... Some suggest other things like baking soda too (which... ermmm... tastes like crap :o and isn't all that effective anyway).

Personally though - I would prefer to simply add vege (spinach is good - high potassium)... a few raisins would work too (high potassium)... or a dried fig or two (high potassium and high calcium.... and I love figs especially dried figs... or figs with stinky cheeses... :o )... if you didn't want to add something with that many cals..... ermmmm.... how much do you like.... parsley? :o :p


AWESOME I already eat a ton of spinach, figs, and raisins so I must be good. I eat a ton of black mission figs, love them...guess that's another notch in the paleo belt:) parsley...hrmm I could learn to love it haha.

Guess you would have to go get a blood test to actually find out if you are in net acid balance or not? I'm actually doing one soon - is there a technical term for acid in the blood? :) I wonder if it's possible to get your acid too low and go into alkaline territory.

Thanks again for the great table and advice - are you a scientist or something? :) great info!

[Emma-Leigh]

AWESOME I already eat a ton of spinach, figs, and raisins so I must be good. I eat a ton of black mission figs, love them...guess that's another notch in the paleo belt:) parsley...hrmm I could learn to love it haha.
LOL - glad I am not the only one who loves figs (used to work on a farm when I was young - they had fig tree's down the back paddock.... Oh. My. Gosh. Took 4 hrs to ride there but it was worth it... and suffice to say I ate my fair share :o ).


Guess you would have to go get a blood test to actually find out if you are in net acid balance or not? I'm actually doing one soon - is there a technical term for acid in the blood? :) I wonder if it's possible to get your acid too low and go into alkaline territory.

The technical terms you would be looking for would be 'pH'. <- just like chemicals in chem lab. And to find out your pH balance you can do it several ways -> depending on how 'serious' you want to be/ get.

Blood gas can be taken to measure it. It will give you a pH of your blood (how acid/ alkali you are) and will also sample things like Carbon Dioxide levels, some of the electrolytes (potassium, bicarb etc). It will also be able to tell you if your body is working to rid itself of excess acid or base (which it can do one of two ways - via the lungs by altering the carbon dioxide in your blood, or via your kidneys by altering the basic/ alkali things in your blood - measured by something called the 'base excess'). Anyway -> for this test, it is a blood sample. Arterial blood is most accurate for this.... but it stings like buggery as you they need to put a needle straight into one of the arteries at your wrist (the artery walls are tough and to get a needle in there they have to 'stab' you with the needle). They can do it from venous blood (from a vein like normal blood tests) but it is less accurate. And the other issue with this is that it needs to be processed straight away - so you would need to go to a facility with a blood gas machine available.

Whether or not a 'high acid diet' would be enough to alter the results of these tests is also debatable. The body is pretty good at 'buffering' itself against alterations in pH and keeps your blood pH pretty constant between 7.35-7.45..... And when taken with the inaccuracy of any test the results could mean something or nothing at all. Basically -> you would have to be pretty 'out of balance' for something significant to show up. BUT with that said - if your pH was 'toward' the lower end of this range it could be an 'indication' of things being 'out of balance'.


You could also do it much more simply via a urine pH test at home. For this, you need some pH strips (which you should be able to get from most chemists) < and you simply need to pee onto it (watch your hand :o :p ) and it will tell you if you are dumping excess acid. The issue with this test is that it is pretty inaccurate and there can be other things that cause the pH of your pee to change too (eg: bacteria). But generally speaking -> if your pee is something between 6.5 and 7.5 ish (morning catch) -> you are 'generally ok ish'. If you were tending down toward the 5.5-6.5 ish figures, then you have to be concerned about excess acid in your body.


With regards to being too 'alkali' <- yes, this can happen too... Although being alkali from diet is much less common you could cause yourself to be 'alkali' very easily.... eg: vomit lots. This causes you to lose acid from your stomach -> so your pH goes up. You can also do it by changing the depth and rate of your breathing... which alters the carbon dioxide in your blood - and this changes the levels of hydrogen and HCO3- (bicarb) which are the main things involved in pH in the body.

Anyway - - >> once again - unless you have issues with your kidney's or lunges, your body would 'buffer' long term changes in this and you'd still end up with a pH somewhere between 7.35-7.45.


Thanks again for the great table and advice - are you a scientist or something? :) great info!
.... something like that, yes.

[Emma-Leigh]

If anyone is interested I just had a new link appear in my mail regarding a new study for a supplement that can help decrease acid load: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/8/1/23

[RealMenDeadLift]

If anyone is interested I just had a new link appear in my mail regarding a new study for a supplement that can help decrease acid load: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/8/1/23

shots of vinegar work too, just kind of suck for about 10 seconds

[nano.ix]

I just want to say I can't believe i didn't find this place sooner.
These articles are great and make perfect sence. Factual evidance is good

[machx]

LOL - glad I am not the only one who loves figs (used to work on a farm when I was young - they had fig tree's down the back paddock.... Oh. My. Gosh. Took 4 hrs to ride there but it was worth it... and suffice to say I ate my fair share :o ).



The technical terms you would be looking for would be 'pH'. <- just like chemicals in chem lab. And to find out your pH balance you can do it several ways -> depending on how 'serious' you want to be/ get.

Blood gas can be taken to measure it. It will give you a pH of your blood (how acid/ alkali you are) and will also sample things like Carbon Dioxide levels, some of the electrolytes (potassium, bicarb etc). It will also be able to tell you if your body is working to rid itself of excess acid or base (which it can do one of two ways - via the lungs by altering the carbon dioxide in your blood, or via your kidneys by altering the basic/ alkali things in your blood - measured by something called the 'base excess'). Anyway -> for this test, it is a blood sample. Arterial blood is most accurate for this.... but it stings like buggery as you they need to put a needle straight into one of the arteries at your wrist (the artery walls are tough and to get a needle in there they have to 'stab' you with the needle). They can do it from venous blood (from a vein like normal blood tests) but it is less accurate. And the other issue with this is that it needs to be processed straight away - so you would need to go to a facility with a blood gas machine available.

Whether or not a 'high acid diet' would be enough to alter the results of these tests is also debatable. The body is pretty good at 'buffering' itself against alterations in pH and keeps your blood pH pretty constant between 7.35-7.45..... And when taken with the inaccuracy of any test the results could mean something or nothing at all. Basically -> you would have to be pretty 'out of balance' for something significant to show up. BUT with that said - if your pH was 'toward' the lower end of this range it could be an 'indication' of things being 'out of balance'.


You could also do it much more simply via a urine pH test at home. For this, you need some pH strips (which you should be able to get from most chemists) < and you simply need to pee onto it (watch your hand :o :p ) and it will tell you if you are dumping excess acid. The issue with this test is that it is pretty inaccurate and there can be other things that cause the pH of your pee to change too (eg: bacteria). But generally speaking -> if your pee is something between 6.5 and 7.5 ish (morning catch) -> you are 'generally ok ish'. If you were tending down toward the 5.5-6.5 ish figures, then you have to be concerned about excess acid in your body.


With regards to being too 'alkali' <- yes, this can happen too... Although being alkali from diet is much less common you could cause yourself to be 'alkali' very easily.... eg: vomit lots. This causes you to lose acid from your stomach -> so your pH goes up. You can also do it by changing the depth and rate of your breathing... which alters the carbon dioxide in your blood - and this changes the levels of hydrogen and HCO3- (bicarb) which are the main things involved in pH in the body.

Anyway - - >> once again - unless you have issues with your kidney's or lunges, your body would 'buffer' long term changes in this and you'd still end up with a pH somewhere between 7.35-7.45.


.... something like that, yes.

Sorry I just read this now. Fig trees are AWESOME - but in my part of the world they are hard to impossible to keep alive through our winters. A friend of mine has one but it is a painstaking process!

Thanks for that incredible answer on pH - you are a living textbook! Really appreciate all your help.

[caliguy-ovh]

In my opinion the "suggested protein requirements" for muscle building are ludicrously inflated! Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?[/QUOTE]

Well actually i just got out of prison and you actually have a very high protein diet from just the food served.. Plus you have commisary which sells tuna packs, sardines and jackmack along with protien shakes and oatmeal , pb etc... so really it is very easy to get a ton of calories and carbs and protien in there... so your argument is not really valid. Protein is needed you learn this **** in hs biology of w/e.... 1.5-2g protein per pound is a safe way to go.

[Emma-Leigh]

Well actually i just got out of prison and you actually have a very high protein diet from just the food served.. Plus you have commisary which sells tuna packs, sardines and jackmack along with protien shakes and oatmeal , pb etc... so really it is very easy to get a ton of calories and carbs and protien in there... so your argument is not really valid. Protein is needed you learn this **** in hs biology of w/e.... 1.5-2g protein per pound is a safe way to go.
^
use gratuitous language like that again and I'll get nasty. There was no need for it.

[Jete1]

Suprised this review hasn't popped up (or did I miss it?)

http://www.jissn.com/content/3/1/7


Far from the last word, but a jumping off point.

I enjoyed reading what I could actually understand of that.. But, from what I got out of that, they found typically an athlete needs about 1.8g of protein per kg of body weight per day?

[iCY]

Heh I never learned how to take unnecessary amounts of protein in hs biology.

In terms of "dieting" to lose weight, low protein and moderate protein diets produce similar results. high protein diets produce slightly better results in reducing body fat, but it does not justify displacing the fruits/vegetables in your diet just to preserve a small amount of muscle.

unless you are a true bodybuilder, i dont see any reason for you to be taking more than 1g/lb of body weight.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-6-23.pdf

[Jay Rawd]

Well actually i just got out of prison and you actually have a very high protein diet from just the food served.. Plus you have commisary which sells tuna packs, sardines and jackmack along with protien shakes and oatmeal , pb etc... so really it is very easy to get a ton of calories and carbs and protien in there... so your argument is not really valid. Protein is needed you learn this **** in hs biology of w/e.... 1.5-2g protein per pound is a safe way to go.

1.5-2g per lb. LMAO

Christ Aceto (who has trained Troy Alves, Jay Cutler, etc.) says the upper limit is 1.3 g/lb. Layne Norton agrees, so does Alan Aragon.

You=failure.

No, I never learned anything in Biology that said muscle is built from eating 1.5-2g per lb.

[GHSW27]

ok im not attacking anybody here but nobody in this thread that has a respectable amount of mass seems to feel that 1-1.25g of protein per lb of body weight is enough to build a lot of muscle mass. im sure less is fine for those who dont care about weighting 210+ lbs lean benching over three plates or squatting 4 or 5 plates but for those who have average genetics that want to reach a high level in the weight room i dont feel 1g per lb is going to cut it. i have spent plenty of time eating 1-1.25g of protein per lb of body mass while eating plenty of calories and got crap results, when i upped to 1.5-2g things turned around big time. as far as health problems can somebody find me a case where somebody had a health related issue because of too much protein that was healthy to begin with? I know that all the studies say this and that but what about real results?

[determined4000]

ok im not attacking anybody here but nobody in this thread that has a respectable amount of mass seems to feel that 1-1.25g of protein per lb of body weight is enough to build a lot of muscle mass.

ummmm ^^^^ look above you

[GHSW27]

ummmm ^^^^ look above you

Jay Rawd isnt what i was refering too when i said respectable amount of muscle mass, what i meant was somebody like lift.iron, Obnoxious123, or Simmo0508 and if you were reffering to his post about Jay Cutler eating 1.3g per lb(i would bet this isnt always/hasent always been the case) jay cutler has genetics in probably the top 1 or 2 percentile for bodybuilding, not exactly average.

[determined4000]

Jay Rawd isnt what i was refering too when i said respectable amount of muscle mass, what i meant was somebody like lift.iron, Obnoxious123, or Simmo0508 and if you were reffering to his post about Jay Cutler eating 1.3g per lb(i would bet this isnt always/hasent always been the case) jay cutler has genetics in probably the top 1 or 2 percentile for bodybuilding, not exactly average.

I would venture to guess many exceed 1g/lb easily just because on caloric intake ( I know I do). Those that you speak of have substantial calorie needs and probably don't have to worry about getting 1g/lb. Then there are small guys like me who have low enough body weights where 1g/lb is exceeding with the same relative ease because the actual total number of grams needed is so low. I am actually an endurance athlete + bulking + small + hypoglycemic (no refined of starchy carbs)--> I have to force myself not to go to high on protein.

[patkoch]

Jay Rawd isnt what i was refering too when i said respectable amount of muscle mass, what i meant was somebody like lift.iron, Obnoxious123, or Simmo0508 and if you were reffering to his post about Jay Cutler eating 1.3g per lb(i would bet this isnt always/hasent always been the case) jay cutler has genetics in probably the top 1 or 2 percentile for bodybuilding, not exactly average.

keep in mind that protein during a cut may be far more important then while bulking. Also the whole protein thing has gotten far out of hand, the supplement industry may have something to do with this. Time and time again studies don't show benefits of excess protein intake.

[GHSW27]

keep in mind that protein during a cut may be far more important then while bulking. Also the whole protein thing has gotten far out of hand, the supplement industry may have something to do with this. Time and time again studies don't show benefits of excess protein intake.

here is an article on higher protein that mentions some studies advocating higher protein, but there really dont seem to be many studies using 2g per lb of body weight http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki10.htm

[Simmo0508]

Jay Rawd isnt what i was refering too when i said respectable amount of muscle mass, what i meant was somebody like lift.iron, Obnoxious123, or Simmo0508 and if you were reffering to his post about Jay Cutler eating 1.3g per lb(i would bet this isnt always/hasent always been the case) jay cutler has genetics in probably the top 1 or 2 percentile for bodybuilding, not exactly average.

lol Jay Cutler does way more than 1.3 huh. Those guys get around 500-600g daily no worries. It's crazy what the big boys 250lbs+ do. Their carbs are around 1000 and it makes their protein look like nothing in comparison lol People place too much attention on protein though. Carbs and fat are equally as important.

If you wanted advice on protein intake, i keep it simple. It depends on the person and the body in question, and the recovery needs. When you aren't a small bloke anymore, you have to eat **** tons just to maintain where you're at quite often enough. When you're training day in day out, heavy everything, volume etc. one needs way more calories than the standard lifter or gym trainee.

For a skinny guy, yeah 1.5-2g per lb sounds like a lot, and yes, that's probably too much for them and some of the food would go to waste. Although for a big muscular guy, 1.5-2g per lb is quite common. Body demands are higher. Training requirements are higher. Maintenance is higher. Calories and PCF grams needed for further growth is higher.

Needs vary, and most importantly seeing as though most internet forums aren't overflowing with huge jacked bodybuilders, you'll rather get a consensus that really just appeases and refers to the smaller group. So like you made out, it's best to be careful of whom you take advice and info from on the internet when it comes to applying things to yourself.

[Emma-Leigh]

Needs vary, and most importantly seeing as though most internet forums aren't overflowing with huge jacked bodybuilders, you'll rather get a consensus that really just appeases and refers to the smaller group. So like you made out, it's best to be careful of whom you take advice and info from on the internet when it comes to applying things to yourself.
Just a note here: many of above mentioned 'huge jacked guys' do not = regular people with 'physiologically/ hormonally normal' states... As such they shouldn't be used as 'bench marks' re anything to do with training or nutrition. ;)

[GHSW27]

Just a note here: many of above mentioned 'huge jacked guys' do not = regular people with 'physiologically/ hormonally normal' states... As such they shouldn't be used as 'bench marks' re anything to do with training or nutrition. ;)

your defiantly right about not necessarily following what pro bodybuilders do themselves training and nutrition wise, but you can see the people in this thread advocating 1.5g+ protein per lb have more muscle mass than the ones advocating 1g and below. for a 150 lb person eating 225-300g of protein isn't that big a deal 300g is only 3 lbs of meat or 2 lbs of meat and 4 scoops of protein powder. if eating 2500 calories that can be 40% of your intake, plenty of room for carbs and fats.

[Jay Rawd]

your defiantly right about not necessarily following what pro bodybuilders do themselves training and nutrition wise, but you can see the people in this thread advocating 1.5g+ protein per lb have more muscle mass than the ones advocating 1g and below. for a 150 lb person eating 225-300g of protein isn't that big a deal 300g is only 3 lbs of meat or 2 lbs of meat and 4 scoops of protein powder. if eating 2500 calories that can be 40% of your intake, plenty of room for carbs and fats.
Again, if we were to use anecdotes, Christ Aceto himself says that he has his pro bb clients eating 1.5 at max. Layne Norton (who is far from being small at 200 lb. lean mass) and member Sporto (who is far from being small) advocate 1 g/lb. as sufficient. There, my anecdotes are greater than YOUR anecdotes. You see how easy it is to list big guys who disagree with you? That's why in ADVANCED NUTRITION, we don't rely on idiotic appeals to authority. Go back to the other forums for that.

Not to mention there was a time when I ate around 3 g/lb. of bodyweight in protein. I also remember not being much bigger than I am now, either. If you think I'm small now keep in mind I weighed LESS in terms of LBM around that time, too.

The reason so many big guys get so much protein is because when you eat around 5-6K in calories, you can't help adding in extra protein since meats are tasty. Plus, when some people bulk, they don't count their grams, and if they do, they're not too neurotic about how high or low they go. I'm bulking now and find it very easy to get over 1 g/lb, and I've been overdoing it for the past month. But do I think I have a greater chance of growing because of it? No.

If you're bulking, quite simply the science (and even the experts) don't support the notion of excessive protein intake. Actually, it is possible that you CAN overdo protein on a bulk and pay for it during a cut. Your kidneys will accustom themselves to a load of excess protein so it becomes even harder to stay in positive nitrogen balance when in a caloric deficit. What this means is that if you're an idiot and are eating around 2g/lb. of protein during a bulk, then you're going to have to UP that amount during a cut and be left with little else in terms of carbs and fats, and more chance for lean mass loss.

Going to 1.5-2g/lb. seems to be more for cutting since the TEF would be warranted. Plus, in the face of higher than maintenance caloric intakes, nitrogen balance is easily attained and pretty hard to get out of.

But if you want more anecdotes, Layne (a natural bber who has 200 lb. of lean mass) eats 1 g/lb. during bulking, 1.25 g/lb. during cutting, and he deadlifts around 600 lb. Not only that but he's bigger than some of the people you listed (not the pro bbers but those that Chris Aceto trains do fine with 1-1.5 and nowehere near 2 g/lb.)

[GHSW27]

Not to mention there was a time when I ate around 3 g/lb. of bodyweight in protein. I also remember not being much bigger than I am now, either. If you think I'm small now keep in mind I weighed LESS in terms of LBM around that time, too.


so you've eaten 3g per lb of body weight which you said had you maybe a little bigger if anything and now you eat 1g per lb and are no bigger. 3g per lb is excessive but you said your self that your not any bigger now that you eat 1g per lb. have you ever TRIED eating 1.5g per lb consistently?

[Jay Rawd]

so you've eaten 3g per lb of body weight which you said had you maybe a little bigger if anything and now you eat 1g per lb and are no bigger.

I think you need to get your eyes fixed. I said the exact opposite.


3g per lb is excessive but you said your self that your not any bigger now that you eat 1g per lb. have you ever TRIED eating 1.5g per lb consistently?

I actually mentioned I am bigger. When I reduced the protein and added a whole bunch of carbs, lo and behold I actually started seeing size gains.

As far as 1.5 g/lb. consistently, I actually did that for about 2 years without breaks. Nothing special about that. I actually had a deal where I went to a buffet and got all I could eat for 5 bucks. I loaded up on meat like salmon, mackerel, and chicken, with a few steaks here and there. Not only that but protein powders are cheap, so I drank a ton of shakes, too. 1.5 g/lb. has actually been my most consistent intake by far. 3 g/lb. lasted for maybe a year and 1 g/lb. I started not too long ago but I have noticed that my size gains are bigger with more carbs and less protein. I mean I always get at least 1 g/lb. but when I eat more carbs I perform way better and grow more.

[Olympique]

I apologize if this has already been posted here, but I read it the other day and found it quite informative, so I hope it helps others.

[Jay Rawd]

I apologize if this has already been posted here, but I read it the other day and found it quite informative, so I hope it helps others.
Pffffft, those nerdz never got nekkid to flex their munclez, they dont kno what dere talkin abt!

[NTT91]

seriously guys, how can you NOT get 1g per pound or more if you're eating anything about 2500 cals a day. I actually go out of my way to get less than 250 grams a day. There is so much incedental protein in carbs and whatnot that it's inevitable. As a bber, It seems wrong to go out of your way to lower your protein intake lol.

[Jay Rawd]

seriously guys, how can you NOT get 1g per pound or more if you're eating anything about 2500 cals a day. I actually go out of my way to get less than 250 grams a day. There is so much incedental protein in carbs and whatnot that it's inevitable. As a bber, It seems wrong to go out of your way to lower your protein intake lol.
Nobody is saying to lower your protein intake, just not to go crazy on tons of powders trying to take insane amounts that aren't even proven to be beneficial.

[alza]

How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

Has anyone experiminted with moderate protein high carb diets and had positive results?

hi mate iv had far better results,more energy and better muscle growth with high carbs-400-500g a day and 100-150g of protein it goes against the grain but defo works.thats training full body workouts 3x a week hope it helps mate

[Jay Rawd]

hi mate iv had far better results,more energy and better muscle growth with high carbs-400-500g a day and 100-150g of protein it goes against the grain but defo works.thats training full body workouts 3x a week hope it helps mate
I gotta upload my pics of when I was eating 1.5 g/lb. compared to when I was eating 1 g/lb. with more carbs. Needless to say (as if you didn't guess it), I am bigger now.

[MarkVI]

I gotta upload my pics of when I was eating 1.5 g/lb. compared to when I was eating 1 g/lb. with more carbs. Needless to say (as if you didn't guess it), I am bigger now.

Why would you say that? Because you had enough energy from the carbs to lift correctly and more intensley? I bet that's it. I would bet that it had nothing to do with the macronutrient change. unless of course your cals changed.

[Jay Rawd]

Why would you say that? Because you had enough energy from the carbs to lift correctly and more intensley? I bet that's it. I would bet that it had nothing to do with the macronutrient change. unless of course your cals changed.

I don't think it had to do with lowering protein, just adding carbs.

But seeing as my workouts were more productive on less protein and more carbs (equal cals), then that's why I don't see the point in going to such high intakes during a bulk, unless one is insulin resistant, to which case both protein AND fat should increase while carbs go down (but not necessarily to ketogenic levels).

[lth]

I don't think it had to do with lowering protein, just adding carbs.

But seeing as my workouts were more productive on less protein and more carbs (equal cals), then that's why I don't see the point in going to such high intakes during a bulk, unless one is insulin resistant, to which case both protein AND fat should increase while carbs go down (but not necessarily to ketogenic levels).

Like you said bro, it had to do with your training being more intense from having more energy, a shift in macros isn't going to matter all that much.

[Jay Rawd]

Like you said bro, it had to do with your training being more intense from having more energy, a shift in macros isn't going to matter all that much.
Right, I just don't really see the point of doing very high intakes of protein in the face of positive caloric balance.

I mean when I was bulking towards the end I was getting over 1 g/lb. seeing as I needed tons of calories and it was impossible to keep it at 1 g/lb. seeing as the carb and fat sources also had protein, but deliberately going out of the way to up protein to huge levels during a bulk doesn't make much sense.

[lth]

Right, I just don't really see the point of doing very high intakes of protein in the face of positive caloric balance.

I mean when I was bulking towards the end I was getting over 1 g/lb. seeing as I needed tons of calories and it was impossible to keep it at 1 g/lb. seeing as the carb and fat sources also had protein, but deliberately going out of the way to up protein to huge levels during a bulk doesn't make much sense.

I don't see the need for large amounts of carbs on a bulking diet.....they're used for training but nobody is going to need 5-600g of carbs a day to perform at a high level. I'd rather get my extra calories from protein or fat which are the substrates for growth.

[Jay Rawd]

I don't see the need for large amounts of carbs on a bulking diet.....they're used for training but nobody is going to need 5-600g of carbs a day to perform at a high level. I'd rather get my extra calories from protein or fat which are the substrates for growth.

So you lower protein when cutting?

As for carbs, much better to get extra calories from them since

1. DNL doesn't contribute significantly to fat gain
2. Extra fat is more readily stored as fat
3. Extra protein can of course aid in growth but seeing as carbs are tastier, cheaper, not directly a fat contributor, are protein sparing (make it easier to stay in nitro balance), I don't see a need to NOT eat 600 grams
4. Not only that, but there is a possibility that kidneys can accomodate to large loads of protein, making it harder to stay in nitro balance at lower intakes (if you lower it while cutting)

[lth]

So you lower protein when cutting?

As for carbs, much better to get extra calories from them since

1. DNL doesn't contribute significantly to fat gain
2. Extra fat is more readily stored as fat
3. Extra protein can of course aid in growth but seeing as carbs are tastier, cheaper, not directly a fat contributor, are protein sparing (make it easier to stay in nitro balance), I don't see a need to NOT eat 600 grams
4. Not only that, but there is a possibility that kidneys can accomodate to large loads of protein, making it harder to stay in nitro balance at lower intakes (if you lower it while cutting)

Well, yes.....because i lower calories.....offseason i eat up to around 400g of protein. And the bold....this depends on the insulin sensitive/resistant turnover of the individual.

[spirit3530]

When people think they are being "more successful" eating more than 1.5 grams per lb bodyweight. They aren't taking into consideration adipose (fat) tissue around organs, arteries and stored within the muscle. Tissue gains come from adequate training and adequate calories and micronutient profile. Unfortunately peoples idea of bulking carbs are crappy sources that don't meet micronutrient needs therefore when someone increases protein now they are meeting those needs but also increasing toxicity levels from certain micronutrients.

People are lazy. More than 1.3gr per lb is not needed, however to if your micronutrients from your carbs are less than required. You can often carpet bomb your body by increasing protein sources and restore gains to a semi normal level of a balanced diet. However then you have to deal with the effects of the toxic levels or deficiency due to certain vitamins/minerals not injested or blunted due to high protein intake.

Multi vitamins don't help because often they mirror the "high protein diet" explanation I gave earlier.

[determined4000]

(make it easier to stay in nitro balance)

I was informed recently about too much protein being detrimental to muscle growth because of Nitrogen balance but have had trouble finding any literature.
Can you explain or provide a source?

[determined4000]

When people think they are being "more successful" eating more than 1.5 grams per lb bodyweight. They aren't taking into consideration adipose (fat) tissue around organs, arteries and stored within the muscle. Tissue gains come from adequate training and adequate calories and micronutient profile. Unfortunately peoples idea of bulking carbs are crappy sources that don't meet micronutrient needs therefore when someone increases protein now they are meeting those needs but also increasing toxicity levels from certain micronutrients.

People are lazy. More than 1.3gr per lb is not needed, however to if your micronutrients from your carbs are less than required. You can often carpet bomb your body by increasing protein sources and restore gains to a semi normal level of a balanced diet. However then you have to deal with the effects of the toxic levels or deficiency due to certain vitamins/minerals not injested or blunted due to high protein intake.

Multi vitamins don't help because often they mirror the "high protein diet" explanation I gave earlier.

I am glad to see someone post this as I am sick of hearing that macros and quality of food have no effect. Repped.

[spirit3530]

I am glad to see someone post this as I am sick of hearing that macros and quality of food have no effect. Repped.
I am afraid broscience will always prevail in bodybuilding. One size fits all, more is better mentality is the way. Unfortunately the costs of these choices provide consequences that aren't reported in the bodybuilding community. More tests should be done on bodybuilders, however, the funding would probably never be much. It also would undermine the food & supplement industry because they really don't care if bodybuilders live or die as long as you are taking the supplement or eating the food.

FWIW I personally try to stay between 1gr and 1.3grm protein per lb bw and depending on how lean I am.

[Emma-Leigh]

Well, yes.....because i lower calories.....offseason i eat up to around 400g of protein. And the bold....this depends on the insulin sensitive/resistant turnover of the individual.

^
even in an insulin resistant individual where partitioning is poor, there is more calorie 'wasting' involved in the storage of carbohydrates (it may partition to adipose tissue more readily, but it still needs to be converted to a fat for storage) > as such, calorie v's calorie (and all other variables being equal), you will usually end up with a greater net yield from fat.

[BellyFatBGone]

i will also be cutting down on meat protein and including more vegetarian protein sources

Can you please give examples of vegetarian protein sources (other than soy)?

[Emma-Leigh]

Can you please give examples of vegetarian protein sources (other than soy)?

Bean/ pulses and lentils (chick-peas, kidney beans, fava beans).... These are all perfectly fine and have decent protein content.

Grains have less protein, but some are higher (eg: buckwheat).

Nuts and seeds have a decent amount (but are calorie dense).

You also can get protein powders made from pea, buckwheat and brown rice - which could be good alternatives as well.

Meat Substitutes, Beans and Legumes, Nuts
Veggie Burger (6 oz.) - 51.4 grams
Tofu (6 oz.) - 13.8 grams
Peanut Butter (2 Tbsp.) - 8.1 grams
Almond Butter (2 Tbsp.) - 7 grams
Lentils (1/2 cup) - 9 grams
Split Peas (1/2 cup) - 8.1 grams
Kidney Beans (1/2 cup) - 7.6 grams
Sesame Seeds (1 oz.) - 7.5 grams
Black Beans (1/2 cup) - 7.5 grams
Garbanzo Beans (1/2 cup) - 7.3 grams
Green Peas (1/2 cup) - 4.1 grams

[BellyFatBGone]

Thanks! I love legumes and lentils but generallylimit them because they're also high in carbs

[MarkGates]

1.5-2g per lb. LMAO

Christ Aceto (who has trained Troy Alves, Jay Cutler, etc.) says the upper limit is 1.3 g/lb. Layne Norton agrees, so does Alan Aragon.

You=failure.

No, I never learned anything in Biology that said muscle is built from eating 1.5-2g per lb.

1.3g/lb even for guys that are unnatural, that does supprise me. what are the symptoms of too high a protein intake. i read that exessive wind and something about ones stools ( i cant remember what exactly) is an indication of too high a protein intake or i could be making this up, its hard to tell.

[NTT91]

1.5-2g per lb. LMAO

Christ Aceto (who has trained Troy Alves, Jay Cutler, etc.) says the upper limit is 1.3 g/lb. Layne Norton agrees, so does Alan Aragon.

You=failure.

No, I never learned anything in Biology that said muscle is built from eating 1.5-2g per lb.

Chris Aceto also tells people to only count the complete protein sources, so if you were to include the indirect protein from oats, veggies, nuts, etc, you'd probably be at 1.5-2 grams total protein anyways

[MarkGates]

if that is the case there goes my money saving plans. as i probaly already get around 1.3 from complete but it pushes it to over two with incomplete proteins.

[Confuzzl3dOn3]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but i was wondering if for those aiming for 0.8-1g/lb of protein, do they count proteins from not full protein sources, like oatmeal, nuts, etc? Or do they even include that too? I usually aim for about 1g/lb bodyweight of protein, but usually end up over, and not even including indirect sources of protein....

[Emma-Leigh]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but i was wondering if for those aiming for 0.8-1g/lb of protein, do they count proteins from not full protein sources, like oatmeal, nuts, etc? Or do they even include that too? I usually aim for about 1g/lb bodyweight of protein, but usually end up over, and not even including indirect sources of protein....
I include all sources of protein as 'protein' but I also suggest people get a minimum intake of complete forms too...
^ and the need for this would depends on things like goals/ training/ total calorie intake of the day/ physiology etc etc....

For example ->> If refeeding then 1 x total would be fine as your total. Cals/ carbs would compensate for low intake. If calorie intake was low - then you'd be silly to shoot for that as it would leave you in negative nitrogen balance.

Generally: It would probably be wiser to take the 1g/ pound as complete sources -> so you ensure your total intake is a good bit over..... And, as a personal preference, I usually suggest 1.25 x (there are many 'depends' to that too though).

[Confuzzl3dOn3]

I include all sources of protein as 'protein' but I also suggest people get a minimum intake of complete forms too...
^ and the need for this would depends on things like goals/ training/ total calorie intake of the day/ physiology etc etc....

For example ->> If refeeding then 1 x total would be fine as your total. Cals/ carbs would compensate for low intake. If calorie intake was low - then you'd be silly to shoot for that as it would leave you in negative nitrogen balance.

Generally: It would probably be wiser to take the 1g/ pound as complete sources -> so you ensure your total intake is a good bit over..... And, as a personal preference, I usually suggest 1.25 x (there are many 'depends' to that too though).

Thanks for the awesome help emma. Always good to have ya giving out good advice :D

[dafwyn]

if my protein intake is at 1-1.5 g/lb bodyweight however my total calorie intake is only at a maintain basis will i still add muscle to my frame? i take a whey shake with creatine, HMB & glutamine twice daily which gives me 60g then i get the rest from chicken, eggs etc. i don't each much carbs either to honest, they make me feels bloated then i eat less throughout the day so i stay away. a reply would be appreciated, daf

[dimasso69]

What would be the effect if one at .6g protein per lb or .7g protein per lb...even if in a calorie excess? Or at maitinence or in a deflict. Basically wonder what would happen especially in an excess. For some is .6g protein per lb sufficent?

[Emma-Leigh]

if my protein intake is at 1-1.5 g/lb bodyweight however my total calorie intake is only at a maintain basis will i still add muscle to my frame? i take a whey shake with creatine, HMB & glutamine twice daily which gives me 60g then i get the rest from chicken, eggs etc. i don't each much carbs either to honest, they make me feels bloated then i eat less throughout the day so i stay away. a reply would be appreciated, daf
1-1.5g protein is sufficient. but at a calorie level that is at a 'maintain basis' >> you answer your own question. ;)

Unless:
1. using steroids
2. a noobie to weight training
3. a few other situations (eg: cyclic dieting when combined with specific training patterns)
you will not 'add muscle to your frame' without calorie excess to do so.



What would be the effect if one at .6g protein per lb or .7g protein per lb...even if in a calorie excess? Or at maitinence or in a deflict. Basically wonder what would happen especially in an excess. For some is .6g protein per lb sufficent?
For a sedentary individual that would likely be sufficient to keep them in nitrogen balance when at excess and probably at maintenance too. If in calorie deficit they would simply loose a higher percentage of lean mass as a result of the lower protein intake.

For someone with increased needs ( athlete / someone in training / someone growing / someone pregnant ) then even in calorie excess protein requirements would not be met sufficiently - thus it would likely result in failure to grow, poor performance, decreased health, and other mild protein: energy imbalance effects ...


for more info:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18996869

Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Nov;88(5):1322-9. Links
Comment in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Nov;88(5):1187-8.
Dietary protein requirements of younger and older adults.

Campbell WW, Johnson CA, McCabe GP, Carnell NS.
Department of Foods and Nutrition, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907, USA. campbellw@purdue.edu
BACKGROUND: For older men and women, the Estimated Average Requirement (EAR) and Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein are not known with confidence. Data from the limited research studies available suggest that the EAR and RDA might be greater than the assumed 0.66 and 0.80 g protein x kg body wt(-1) x d(-1), respectively. OBJECTIVE: This study assessed the effect of age on the EAR and RDA for protein. DESIGN: Twenty-three younger (age: 21-46 y; 11 men, 12 women) and 19 older (age: 63-81 y; 8 men, 11 women) persons completed three 18-d trials with protein intakes of 0.50, 0.75, and 1.00 g protein x kg body wt(-1) x d(-1). Nitrogen balance was determined by using data from total nitrogen analyses of duplicate food composites and complete urine and feces collections from days 14 to 17 of each trial. Each subject's protein requirement was estimated by using linear regression of protein intake and nitrogen balance data from all 3 trials and inverse prediction. RESULTS: The mean (+/- SD) protein requirement was not different between the younger and older subjects: 0.61 +/- 0.14 compared with 0.58 +/- 0.12 g protein x kg body wt(-1) . d(-1). On the basis of individual requirement estimates from the younger and older subjects combined (2.5% trimming from each tail and variation estimated by the bootstrap), an adequate protein allowance for these subjects was calculated to be 0.85 +/- 0.21 g protein x kg body wt(-1) x d(-1). CONCLUSIONS: These short-term nitrogen balance results suggest that the requirement for total dietary protein is not different for healthy older adults than for younger adults and that the allowance estimate does not differ statistically from the RDA.
PMID: 18996869 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17241913

Clin Sports Med. 2007 Jan;26(1):17-36. Links
Protein requirements and recommendations for athletes: relevance of ivory tower arguments for practical recommendations.

Tipton KD, Witard OC.
School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B29 5SA, United Kingdom. k.d.tipton@bham.ac.uk <k.d.tipton@bham.ac.uk>
Protein nutrition for athletes has long been a topic of interest. From the legendary Greek wrestler Milo--purported to eat copious amounts of beef during his five successive Olympic titles--to modern athletes consuming huge amounts of supplements, protein intake has been considered paramount. Recommendations for protein intake for athletes has not been without controversy, however. In general, scientific opinion on this controversy seems to divide itself into two camps--those who believe participation in exercise and sport increases the nutritional requirement for protein and those who believe protein requirements for athletes and exercising individuals are no different from the requirements for sedentary individuals. There seems to be evidence for both arguments. Although this issue may be scientifically relevant, from a practical perspective, the requirement for protein-as most often defined-may not be applicable to most athletes.
PMID: 17241913 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Also - if you have a few days:
http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/food2/UID07E/UID07E00.HTM
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/MEETING/004/AA055E/AA055E00.htm#TOC

[Opies]

I actually have a little question here in regards to incomplete and complete protein and meal timing.

Now I have a weird way of counting incomplete protein and it is based on some logic (that may not be right) with really no proof or anything behind it.

I figure that if you eat incomplete protein by itself it cannot aid muscle synthesis since it lacks all amino acids, and it lacks synthesis triggers like leucine. However, if incomplete sources are eaten along side complete sources, (like in most meals involving meat + veggies + grains) then it should be counted.

Am I right to assume that protein synthesis will not be encouraged by incomplete proteins? (assuming the incomplete is consumed alone)

Anyway I'm just looking for some input on this since I don't know much about incomplete vs complete proteins.

[determined4000]

I actually have a little question here in regards to incomplete and complete protein and meal timing.

Now I have a weird way of counting incomplete protein and it is based on some logic (that may not be right) with really no proof or anything behind it.

I figure that if you eat incomplete protein by itself it cannot aid muscle synthesis since it lacks all amino acids, and it lacks synthesis triggers like leucine. However, if incomplete sources are eaten along side complete sources, (like in most meals involving meat + veggies + grains) then it should be counted.

Am I right to assume that protein synthesis will not be encouraged by incomplete proteins? (assuming the incomplete is consumed alone)

Anyway I'm just looking for some input on this since I don't know much about incomplete vs complete proteins.

what I do is count all protein in calculating the macros of what I am eating but use complete proteins as the basis for my target protein intake
So if you were to aim for 1g/lb for complete protein, you will probably end up in the 1.5g/lb range for total protein intake, which still wouldn't be excessive by any means, leaving plenty of room for carbs and fat.
But quality of protein differs even among complete protein sources. Whey /eggs provide about 1.25xs more nitrogen than beef.

[Shattering Fast]

also, is this 1-1.3g per pound of LBM or TBW?

[determined4000]

also, is this 1-1.3g per pound of LBM or TBW?

I say TBW for most people
With the exception of an obese individual trying to lose weight
they have so much fat to spare that they can go in larger deficits and their protein need would be overstated by a significant amount of fat mass

[Shattering Fast]

I say TBW for most people
With the exception of an obese individual trying to lose weight
they have so much fat to spare that they can go in larger deficits and their protein need would be overstated by a significant amount of fat mass

i see. so for example, if an obese individual were trying to go from 260lb to 180lb, would it be better to undershoot to 180g, to overshoot to 260g or to meet somewhere in the middle?

[dimasso69]

Emma, i am talking pounds though that study that was posted here which i read was .66-.80g protein per KG not pounds... .8g per kg is a very low amount of protein while .8g per lb is double that.

[Jay Rawd]

I don't see the need for large amounts of carbs on a bulking diet.....they're used for training but nobody is going to need 5-600g of carbs a day to perform at a high level. I'd rather get my extra calories from protein or fat which are the substrates for growth.
Funny how you say you don't see the need for large amounts of carbs, but see the need for insane amounts of protein.

You don't need 600 grams of carbs, true.

You also don't need 600 grams of protein, either.

[Jay Rawd]

Chris Aceto also tells people to only count the complete protein sources, so if you were to include the indirect protein from oats, veggies, nuts, etc, you'd probably be at 1.5-2 grams total protein anyways
I seriously doubt that.

Not only that, but if you only count total protein sources, you're ignoring extra calories in your carb and fat foods. Why anyone would do this is beyond me.

[stingray72]

[QUOTE=stevem77;284240291]How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

90 to 100 grams of protein is what i shoot for

[AbAbber2k]

A high protein diet (1.5-2g/lbbw) isn't needed, but there was a study posted somewhere around here that looked at nitrogen balance, and the effects of increasing protein intake on kidney function, and the results were surprising... that the body can handle significantly more protein than we often assume. Based on body size, even non-trained individuals can easily handle 1-1.5g/lbbw. The cap on usable protein was somewhere around 2.0g/lbbw... after which the negative impact on kidney function starts to build up.

Obviously there are going to be diminishing returns on protein intake and how much it's going to aide muscular hypertrophy, but I don't think there's anything inherently "wrong" with a high protein diet.

If I can find the study I'll link it here.

[AbAbber2k]

I say TBW for most people
With the exception of an obese individual trying to lose weight
they have so much fat to spare that they can go in larger deficits and their protein need would be overstated by a significant amount of fat mass

I find that with very overweight/obese clients... maintaining a high protein intake helps significantly when trying to achieve weight/fatloss. Greater muscle sparing, more satiating meals, greater thermic effect of meals, and of course any time you can turn a client away from "comfort foods" (typically fat/carb heavy), you're going to make it easier for them to make smarter dietary decisions in the future. A moderate/high protein diet is just a good habit.

[icebergslimjimj]

check out workouts from Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman. See how much fat they are consuming. No, them boys is eating mad protein 6-7 meals a day.

[Smoothieking1]

check out workouts from Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman. See how much fat they are consuming. No, them boys is eating mad protein 6-7 meals a day.

yea but keep mind its because those guys are dropping tons of calories and nutrients during their workouts
they need those meals, and yea 6 meals a day small ones get your metabolism going

[SupaaJ]

check out workouts from Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman. See how much fat they are consuming. No, them boys is eating mad protein 6-7 meals a day.

Live in the real world, son.

Let me know when you're on 2 grams of a Test a week, for starters. What Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman do are about as valuable an information source to us as the training/supplementation program of martha stewart. I know, I know it sucks because they are the big bodybuilders we're supposed to look up to.....well, stop.


yea but keep mind its because those guys are dropping tons of calories and nutrients during their workouts
they need those meals, and yea 6 meals a day small ones get your metabolism going


Errrrwrrrooonnnggggg! Better luck next time.

[Emma-Leigh]

Live in the real world, son.

Let me know when you're on 2 grams of a Test a week, for starters. What Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman do are about as valuable an information source to us as the training/supplementation program of martha stewart. I know, I know it sucks because they are the big bodybuilders we're supposed to look up to.....well, stop.
This. Add enough juice and the rules don't apply. You can srs get away with just about anything.


Errrrwrrrooonnnggggg! Better luck next time.
And this.

Might want to try these threads:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=119024341
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3587831

[icebergslimjimj]

I'm just stating. Saw Jay on TV the other day and he said he only works out with weights 2hrs a day.

They of course have a perfect routine 24/7 but u don't see them eating low protein,etc.

Jay says he eats 5lbs of fish a day. Think about it! Keep that protein high and fat low and workout hard and c results

[BunkMoreland]

ITT: Great information, peer reviewed journal summaries and scientifically backed data. thx especially to emma. subbed, cheers!

[Cloudstryfe]

Anything in excess is bad for you're body. Excess of protein becomes amonia and its quite nasty for kidneys. Google it and be amazed! Those are my 2cents. Ratios like 30% protein, 50-55% carbs and 20-25% is the healthiest for me.


ahh maybe thats why my urine has been smelling strongly lately, and i only take in about 160g to 180g.

[DucesBrah]

I use a high protein diet but think you most likely take your vitamins and drink milk so the calcium lost and the calcium your getting balances out.

If you dont get enough protein you will just end up losing muscle rather then fat,

[thebiggfella]

Personally, I think 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight is sufficient.

[Emma-Leigh]

Personally, I think 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight is sufficient.
^ proof for said belief which demonstrates evidence contrary to studies posted:
here - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=297242231&postcount=2
here - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=282463311&postcount=48
and here - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=288891751&postcount=52

[thebiggfella]

Good information. Thanks.

[mil1lion]

I find that 1g per pound of bodyweight is sufficient. Although I zig-zag diet, so 2 days a week I have a higher calorie day and add about an extra 30g protein.

[Jesse11]

i think you should go on the palolithic diet. search it up and try following it for a month. Lots of protein and it's not known yet but it makes you overall perform and feel better.

[Quibble]

This 60% - 20% - 20% ratio is what is recommended by nutrisionist's for a healthy diet

lol

[PerpetualMotion]

I think the take home point that is always missed is this: what works for you doesn't necessarily work for someone else. Of course, that's just my "broscience" side talkin'.

[texastechphil]

I thought carbs were more important than protein, to get the excess 500 cals to gain is it better to get it in carb cals or protein cals? or maybe half and half, thanks in advance

[gomez26]

to get the excess 500 cals to gain is it better to get it in carb cals or protein cals?

for practical reasons to minimize fat gains during bulking, the surplus is better from protein, especially when u become intermediate & noob gains dry up.

the reason being u cant predict exactly how much muscle u will gain & when, in fact intermediates may go many weeks without any gains at all (growth happens in spurts rather than perfectly linear fashion each every week like noobs roughly enjoy).

the periods when u dont gain muscle the calorie surplus will be obviously be stored as fat, with protein the conversion to glucose (& therefore to fat) is only around 50% efficient. so if u eat 500cal surplus from carbs & dont gain muscle u will store roughly 500cals to fat, but if ur surplus is entirely from protein only about 250cals will go towards fat storage.

this is the real reason why higher protein intake works better for intermediate & advanced bb'ers gaining muscle (not necessarily strength athletes which make a lot of gains in strength via neural adaption while keeping muscle levels lower & constant). if u could predict muscle gains precisely it would be much simpler, but since u cant its better to eat most ur surplus from protein. training studies will mainly use noobs because gains are more predictable & they will get measurable results in 8-12 weeks, nobody will want to finance a study lasting 6 months + to get measurable results from intermediate bb'ers & most ppl who take up bb'ing will never get to intermediate level anyway so results of noob studies suit them just fine.


I thought carbs were more important than protein
carbs are the preferred energy source for training. surplus by definition is what u take in after all ur energy requirements have been met. get ur surplus mainly from protein unless ur a noob.


Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman. See how much fat they are consuming. No, them boys is eating mad protein 6-7 meals a day Keep that protein high and fat low and workout hard and c results

looking at what pros do is not correct in this instance, saturated fat intake should be decent for the natural bb'er to optimize the body's production of testosterone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8942407
(Mean plasma concentrations of total and sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG)-bound testosterone were 13% and 15% higher, respectively, on the high-fat, low-fiber diet)

of course a pro's body produces zero testosterone, their levels are whatever they load the syringe up with & is not influenced by diet. pros have to keep saturated fat intake low because of cholesterol concerns stemming from the steroid use, naturals dont have this problem & can safely enjoy higher saturated fat intakes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8942407
(there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD)

[wshiller]

In prison, they supplement their low dietary protein in the laundry room when no one is around

I legit lol'd in class at this one!

[tutu2]

I heard high protein can giv u heart diseases?

[str8player]

I heard high protein can giv u heart diseases?

You heard from whom? Any scientific data to back this?

[ppardee]

Add enough juice and the rules don't apply. You can srs get away with just about anything.

Yeah! That's what Jack Lalane was saying! Get the power juicer and you're set for life and you can grow some wicked awesome eyebrows!

[Guardian]

I haven't read the whole thread but I will make a contribution of which I would theorize has not been mentioned.

The goal of someone who is bodybuilding is to keep elevated if not max protein synthesis throughout the day/night. In some cases this may not even cause growth as much as it may preserve what you have.

In saying that the chief compound responsible for protein synthesis activation is leucine. I personally believe much of the benefit from higher protein diets is from the concurrent high intake of leucine.

However modern science has allowed us to have Leucine supplements. I would say having a reduced protein diet then many advocate along with Leucine supplementation may give similar results however such a study has not been done in this type of manner as of yet.

But do realize 90+% of protein synthesis activation is from Leucine, without this compound most of proteins benefit in muscle cannot occur.

I also am very skeptical of the crowd who believes higher protein causes calcium lost. Many of these studies have been done on sedentary women. But if you are a hard training athlete or bodybuilder your body is going to utilize the extra protein and it won't circulate around as long if at all.

If I ate a high protein diet but did nothing but work at an office and sit at home yea there may be health concerns. But Im not I beat myself up day after day that protein is getting used up quick.

With that I do think many over exaggerate the need for protein. A gram per lean pound of body weight along with extra leucine is likely enough for most naturals. I would say most men should strive for 175-225 grams a day depending on your height and weight and training level.

When cutting protein may be of extra importance to preserve muscle, where as in bulking its more about surplus calories in general.

Lastly timing is also important. Pre/post workout along with first thing in the morning should account for at least half your overall protein intake. Other times of the day less may be ok. I myself generally have 30-40 grams upon rising and 60-90 grams in the pre and post workout time frame with an additional 100 or so accumulated from other areas of the day.

People need to realize something, if your goal is bodybuilding your going to be doing things that aren't necessarily healthy for the population as a whole or even our basic biology. Things like the warrior diet may work for some and get you looking good but it will never get you to an advanced level.

In terms of this thread in specific you can't eat the same amount of protein as most people do yet expect to look alot different.

[coals]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=645707073#post645707073

[ablts]

I haven't. I've noticed drinking a lot of water makes you piss a lot

Technically, you should piss less on a high protein diet. However, you should be drinking so much water it wouldn't matter anyway.

[coals]

ITT. I tried to start a protein discussion thread but I didn't even realize this was here. copypasta from my thread:

Can we get a discussion on protein requirements going?

And by discussion I don't mean lame argument with people getting butthurt, this isn't the nutrition general section or the misc.

These two papers got me thinking about it more:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=645707073&postcount=110

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=648142233&postcount=111


Some things to get this started (Straight copypasta from my post in the random reading sticky thread)


If we define an optimal level as being a protein intake that would 1.) support an athlete's ability to repair and replace any damaged proteins (resulting potentially from oxidative stress or mechanical disruption); 2.)adaptively "remodel" proteins in structures such as muscle, bone, tendon, and ligaments to better withstand the stress and strain imposed by training and competition; 3.) maintain optimal function of all metabolic pathways in which amino acids are participatory intermediates (which includes being oxidative fuels); 4.) support increments in lean mass, if desired; 5.) support an optimally functioning immune system; and 6.) support the optimal rate of production of all plasma proteins required for optimally physiological function, would the previous estimates of protein intake represent an optimal level?

No one seems to pay attention to 3-6. But (and this is discussed in the paper) if we make protein intake static and apply stimulus, more protein going into muscle synthesis would mean less for other physiological functions. And we do need to consider other functions for optimal level.


...Such a calculation relies, however, on a number of very tenuous assumptions that are not tested in most experimental paradigms, so increased leucine oxidation during endurance exercise may mean an increased need for dietary leucine and not necessarily an increased need for dietary protein.

Not to digress from the point of the paper, but this would be an interesting point to start looking at BCAA supplementation for resistance training. Could there be a similar mechanism behind resistance exercises that could prove beneficial (especiailly fasted if we're oxidizing leucine instead of glucose floating around from earlier meals/glycogen). Even more interesting, could supplementation with bcaa's, especially leucine, then lead to reduced requirement (by that I mean optimal levels) of overall intake /Do we need an entire caseinate protein (for example) if the body is really just after the leucine amino? Interesting idea to pursue, perhaps later. This bears substantial additional weight when considering fasted training, as higher protein oxidation is likely to be observed.

Also going to throw out other stuff in the random reading thread.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=403367251&postcount=33
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=440127411&postcount=45
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=442756661&postcount=51
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=442757211&postcount=52
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=442761751&postcount=56
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=474455481&postcount=64
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=475079471&postcount=68
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=498207581&postcount=80

And there are more but I got tired of searching.

Discussion Topics
1. Drastic overestimation of protein requirement relative to bodybuilders on these forums and advice typically given. (I really don't want to define as a value, but let's throw out >1 g/lb LBM, or even .75 just to stir the flames)
2. Drastic underestimation of protein requirement relative to bodybuilders and RDA advice.
3. Protein requirement changes different situations including: fasting, caloric deficit/surplus/maintainance.
4. Substrate oxidation during various activities under various situations.
5. Long term health and protein intake
6. Anything else

Alright boys and girls, I got everything but the kitchen sink. To get this going, heres my over generalized, over-simplified opinion.:


It is in my belief that protein requirements over 1g/lb of LBM are unnecessary under standard conditions and that even 1g/lb may not be truly required for optimal function. I do believe however that 1g/lb LBM is an easy guideline that most people can adhere to and so has merit. I cannot provide a revised minimum, but I'd also throw out that going over 1g/lb LBM is not necessarily a bad thing. With regards to long term health (esp on bone and kidneys since most freak out over blood pH and metabolite wastes), high protein intake will not cause renal "issues" (although reducing protein can alleviate already present issues) and with regards to bone density high protein can increase this value (usually considered beneficial). I definitely think that under standard conditions, >1.25g/lb LBM protein intake can be considered excessive [although If you like protein (I'm addicted to steak an dairy) by all means eat it].


Discuss.

[YCHR]

How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

Has anyone experiminted with moderate protein high carb diets and had positive results?

145 pounds at 8% body fat and I am currently consuming around 1g of protein per lb. of lean body mass so I am usually around 130g - 190g at max. The rest I fill with...****. I started "bulking" too, so I have about 3000+ calories free to fill with whatever the **** I want as I've had trouble putting weight on in the past. Sushi, pasta, rice, flan, milk cake or carrot cake, pop tarts!

I'm 18 and my height is 5'8, I'm fairly lean but I'm really not big at all either, if anyone could offer exact advice onto getting big at this age (fast metabolism I really eat like an animal but my growth isn't AS massive as my food killing is) please let me know!

Also, there was a time in which I went up to around 230g - 290g protein a day and I did experience my pee smelling much foul than usual, bright yellow, I consumed a whole **** load of water and it still remained like...****ing neon. It's too much work for your system, or so I've concluded.

[PG11B]

I haven't. I've noticed drinking a lot of water makes you piss a lot

LOL, well...when you're right, you're right.

[martymcfly]

In my opinion keto diets are a waste of time and are harmful for your health. I dont beleive cutting out any key nutrients should be done if you care about your health. Carbs are your bodys primary source of energy and at least a moderate amount is needed.

wow.

[eur0_trashed]

in regards to lifting
beginners = 1.5 - 1.7g protein / kg
maintenance / slow growth = 1.1-1.4g per kg
on a cycle = over 9000

[MikeyMitch]

i take in 2800-3200 calories a day and about 110-145 grams of protien. went from 148lbs to 185lbs in 2 and a half years with basically no bodyfat..never have weird piss smells or any health problems... I find that the 180-300grams of protein a day some ppl take who weigh the same as me does nothing for them except give them the sh.its. .5-.6/grams per pound is perfect imo..take a look at my before n after pics to see if these ratio's dont work!

[schabowy90]

i take in 2800-3200 calories a day and about 110-145 grams of protien. went from 148lbs to 185lbs in 2 and a half years with basically no bodyfat..never have weird piss smells or any health problems... I find that the 180-300grams of protein a day some ppl take who weigh the same as me does nothing for them except give them the sh.its. .5-.6/grams per pound is perfect imo..take a look at my before n after pics to see if these ratio's dont work!

wanna knowwhat I think?

youre probably right.

I think when bulking its much more important to worry about carb intake. Im 170 lbs, i probably wouldnt stress over getting more than 130-140 grams a day, even though Id probably be taking in more lke 160 without trying.

cutting though I think is a different story, it kind of just makes sense to me that you need to keep protein higher since your body is eating away at itself to lose weight

[dweatherholt]

I started working out 18 months ago in prison.

I had a horribly low protien intake content.

They didnt give us much protien at all. I was lucky to get 80-90 grams a day.. and thats if I snuck extra milk or someone gave me theres!

Look at my before and after pictures.

I didnt gain size... I didnt gain wait.,,,

BUT i diffidently lost fat, and gained lean muscle mass. So it kinda evened out. I was 165 lbls probably 15% body fat. Now im 157 lbs 8% body fat. With muscles everywhere that I didnt have before.

So you DONT need ALOT of protien to see results. The question is... would it have made my gains better????

IDK. Im taking protien now though that im out. And im keeping track. So in 6 months or so ill deffidently write out an in depth article on my findings with pictures.

[Zach0fBlad3s]

Hey, not sure if this was posted but I just stumbled over this article and thought it might help:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21722409

[mk.ultra]

Is it really needed or optimal muscle growth?

Has any one got ant scientific knowledge to back it up?


Not denying the claim just i have been reading Patrick Holdfords Optimal Nutrition book which i highly reccomend. But he claims with a wealth of scientific studies to back it up; that a diet high in protein will result in rapid calcium loss which will increase the risk of osteoporosis, and will result in weak bones that are easy fractured in later life, arthritis etc.

Also has anyone seen good results on a moderate protein diet?

Gonna say honestly I don't buy the whole 1g protein/lb of bodyweight thing.

Now it must be taken into consideration I only lift 3x/week, but I am completely recovered and good to go with around 120g of protein per day. I initially took around 180 g per day for months, and it did nothing more for me.

Just my 2 cents, but I'm sure frequency of training should be factored in.

[abdees]

Gonna say honestly I don't buy the whole 1g protein/lb of bodyweight thing.

Now it must be taken into consideration I only lift 3x/week, but I am completely recovered and good to go with around 120g of protein per day. I initially took around 180 g per day for months, and it did nothing more for me.

Just my 2 cents, but I'm sure frequency of training should be factored in.

It's 1g per lbm not body weight!

If you weigh 180 with 10% bf you'll be eating 162 g of protein

[SimRad]

I would just say yes, you do need a lot of protein. I will leave the science behind it to the scientists.
So to get the science behind it, you can check the science section of the supplement forum. I am sure that you will get all that you want from there.

[armkash]

Moderate being about 70g - 100g. & glucose & amino = super relief body.

[BromRector]

on over 400 grams a day and growing pure lean mass fast

[Alihozani]

How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

Has anyone experiminted with moderate protein high carb diets and had positive results?
Actually yeah. I consumed around 60-75 maybe a little more each day, and took 200-275, about 40 of those after workouts, and I actually lost another 15lbs on top of the 12 that I had lost a year before. So its not too bad, plus Im still trying to lose. But, I also have 5-6 meals a day, only one of which is sort of big-dinner.

[creole26]

80-100 grams a day is certainly enough to meet minimal requirements but is absolutely not optimal if your goal is maximizing muscle growth.

true

[hardeepgill]

The answer to this has been widely debated universally for years and always will. That is what is so fascinating about this industry. It is unlike any other industry in the world. Here's my take on it and I am a certified personal trainer. To build muscle you do need ADEQUATE protein. The body doesn't store excess protein as bulging muscles. You need extra calories and those extra calories should also come from carbs. 1 g per lb is ideal to build muscle if your goal is muscle hypertrophy. For general fitness it is recommended your intake should be .8 grams protein per kg of bodyweight. It all depends on your goal!

[titolpz15]

As carbs go up, protein goes down. So if you eat alot of carbs you don't need to eat as much protein.

I like this guy^ pretty much what it is

[roybatty6]

Yes, excess protein turns into glucose. So do excess carbs. Excess calories turn into fat. If you're not eating above maintenance you aren't going to gain weight. If you're eating above maintenance 200 calories from protein and 200g of carbs are pretty much the same, assuming your basic needs are met.

What this guy said.

[BipolarBrah]

How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

180-230g protein per day .. so about 1-1.3g per lbs of my bodyweight.

funny how the people advocating under 1g protein a day aren't exactly as lean/muscle bound as those who are eating higher amounts of protein.. interesting.

[SOJA]

180-230g protein per day .. so about 1-1.3g per lbs of my bodyweight.

funny how the people advocating under 1g protein a day aren't exactly as lean/muscle bound as those who are eating higher amounts of protein.. interesting.
Kev, you're smarter than this (And definitely not a dick). You know you can dip as low as .7 grams per pound of body weight and successfully bulk just as you would on 1 gram per pound of body weight.

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15798080
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1763249
4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001
5. http://sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html
6. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212752

[BipolarBrah]

Kev, you're smarter than this (And definitely not a dick). You know you can dip as low as .7 grams per pound of body weight and successfully bulk just as you would on 1 gram per pound of body weight.

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15798080
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1763249
4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001
5. http://sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html
6. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212752

no no! I wasn't trying to be a dick! just using observation.. interesting links. it's nice to know there are different ways of building muscle.

[Guardian]

From my understanding all else equal (test levels, cortisol levels, etc) leucine is the principle agent which triggers protein synthesis. Leucine as we know is an amino acid. I believe its been claimed that 3 grams of leucine peaks protein synthesis and that amount ideally should be taken in every 3-4 hours. If we say someone is awake 16 hours or so, that's about 5 meals. To get 3 grams of leucine in a meal from most protein sources you will need 30-40 grams of protein total, 3 grams of which is likely to be leucine. This times 5 meals would set you at 150-200 grams of protein for the day regardless of body weight.

Insulin also seems to activate mtor, but how much good would the activation be without any protein? Carbs alone do not provide nearly as much protein synthesis as carbs with protein or even protein alone. Carbs have been shown to be better at reducing muscle breakdown where protein is better at actual anabolism.

Overall, the more carbs you have the less protein you will need because the carbs will reduce cortisol. But, as I stated above, rather then going by a certain amount per pound of body weight, I personally feel everyone would do well with about 180-200 grams of protein a day whether your 150 or 300. When my protein is too high I start getting too much gas, when my protein is to low I do not recover as well. I get around 225 a day or so but I keep my carbs under 100 so...

[JohnSke123]

what carbs WOULD you include that are key to your health? I second this, which carbs are important

[roidmonkey911]

High protein diet is optimal for gaining muscle mass, you never want your body in a deficit of protein when your doing extensive heavy lifting. I dont track macros in the off season other than protein, I make sure to consume atleast 200 grams at the bodyweight of 155.

[Emma-Leigh]

I second this, which carbs are important
Vegetables.

[Ab3K]

*The RDA (recommended dietary allowance) for protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight of adults (or roughly 0.36 grams per lb of body weight). Or I have also seen advised that men need at least 56 grams of protein per day (to avoid deficiency).
*NSCA (National Strength and Conditioning Association) recommends that for active people ,endurance and strength training, a higher intake is advised at around 0.4-0.6 per lb of bodyweight (and up to 0.8g/lb bw for full time athletes).

[Alv]

I've done a 4 week ph cycle recently eating maintenance (2500-2600cals) and 150g protein.
I gained 9lbs during that time and remained after pct, no fat gained, waist remained the same, my current weight is 167lbs.

The point is, if I was able to gain around 2lbs a week of lbm with 150g protein wont this means that to grow muscle naturally I will need much less protein?

[stewy101]

WOW, this thread was getting good and then died off like a bad protein fart. One thing you do not want to do is include any pro bodybuilder like Jay Cutler or any other non natural bodybuilder or athlete into the discussion sense they all are not natural bodybuilders at all. There whole carrier and stance on bodybuilding is a complete joke. They are not bodybuilders but freaks of nature all jammed up on Illegal anabolic steroids that the commission kicks under the rug. I don't give a damn about those dumb asses. I am into doing this the right way and the natural way.

I would never wont to walk around as big as a house with a 1 inch penis all jacked up on steroids and say I was a role modal for any amateur weightlifter or upcoming bodybuilder or want to follow anything those guys had to say. Anyway back to the thread. I defiantly think there is a threshold when it comes to protein and the limit unto which one should consume in a days time considering whether you are a hardcore weightlifter/bodybuilder, long distance runner, MMA fighter, swimmer, football player or just a plain everyday Joe/Jane on the street. Different task in life account for different measures.

Finding the write formula for your diet and nutritional needs has always been an never ending task it seems. I have been trying to get it perfect for the last 10 years and then my body wants to go and change everything on me, but that also comes with age as well. I have always used the same formula for the most part. only changing it ever so often to cut weight a little or maybe add a little mass here and there. I am 5"10 and 175lbs. I like being lean for the most part. It keeps me more energetic and a lot more flexible. I have been bigger but found it to be more taxing on my energy levels as I know the more muscles, the more oxygen it takes to feed them.

For the most part my formula has been like this:

Protein: Body weight times 1.5 grams of protein per day = roughly between 240 to 260 grams per day
Carbohydrates: 240 grams per day
Fats= 40 grams per day

I eat 6 meals per day so I divide all that by 6 to get exactly what I need at each and every meal of the day to keep my lean body mass.

After reading this thread from start to finish some things start to make a little more sense to me about the protein intake. I think even 1.5 might be a little much for me and my body weight/mass
I am thinking of dropping it to between 1.0 and 1.25 seems to make more sense to me and might even help to put on a few more ponds of lean muscle mass/not bulk. plus it might help with all the protein farts that accumulate with all the excess protein intake lol Maybe? To each its own but I think this works for me :)

[determined4000]

I defiantly think there is a threshold when it comes to protein and the limit unto which one should consume in a days time considering whether you are a hardcore weightlifter/bodybuilder, long distance runner, MMA fighter, swimmer, football player or just a plain everyday Joe/Jane on the street. Different task in life account for different measures.

Protein: Body weight times 1.5 grams of protein per day = roughly between 240 to 260 grams per day
Carbohydrates: 240 grams per day
Fats= 40 grams per day

I eat 6 meals per day so I divide all that by 6 to get exactly what I need at each and every meal of the day to keep my lean body mass.

After reading this thread from start to finish some things start to make a little more sense to me about the protein intake. I think even 1.5 might be a little much for me and my body weight/mass
I am thinking of dropping it to between 1.0 and 1.25 seems to make more sense to me and might even help to put on a few more ponds of lean muscle mass/not bulk. plus it might help with all the protein farts that accumulate with all the excess protein intake lol Maybe? To each its own but I think this works for me :)
Protein need only be limited if you have a medical condition or to get adequate carbs and fat

Your fat intake is far too low

You dont need 6meals a day to keep your lean mass

that being said, 1-1.25g/lb is fine

[mickdoo]

Everyone is different. Some need more some less. Just eat what works for you. Most important is do not eat zero anything and pay attention to what foods that you do eat make you feel good and center on those. With example being sweet potatoes make me feel good, give me good energy and I enjoy them. Pasta makes me tired, but tastes good.

[SuperCell]

They are not bodybuilders but freaks of nature all jammed up on Illegal anabolic steroids that the commission kicks under the rug. I don't give a damn about those dumb asses. I am into doing this the right way and the natural way.

who are you to decide what is the "right" way to bodybuild?

They take the drugs because they work.

btw, bodybuilding means bodybuilding. Health is a seperate issue.

[stewy101]

who are you to decide what is the "right" way to bodybuild?

They take the drugs because they work.

btw, bodybuilding means bodybuilding. Health is a seperate issue.

I stated my opinion about steroids and bodybuilding. You know, like steroids and baseball or steroids and high school football, or steroids and MMA, or steroids and swimming etc etc etc etc. Screw it lets all just join hands and forget about protein and just shoot up on steroids instead. Its legal and good for our body's and it sets a great example for our kids to see and grow up with. Those freaks aren't bodybuilders. There drug users who cheat to get where they are today. I do not respect them or the use of steroids at all. THAT is my OPINION! And I was referring to earlier post that were presented as if we were to follow those steroid freaks guidelines to diet,nutrition,supplementing and workouts. I don't think so!!!

[stewy101]

Protein need only be limited if you have a medical condition or to get adequate carbs and fat

Your fat intake is far too low

You dont need 6meals a day to keep your lean mass

that being said, 1-1.25g/lb is fine

Frank Sepe: look him up on the web and Facebook. He is a former pro bodybuilder and is currently a professional trainer with several books out. One being on the top 20 best sellers of all time. the book is called: THE TRUTH. the only fitness book you will ever need by Frank Sepe. I bought it several years ago just to pick up some new tips and guidelines on bodybuilding/Workouts, Diet and Nutrition. Best advise I ever got to this day and I have been doing this off and on for 26 years. Check it out. It is a great read........

[SuperCell]

I stated my opinion about steroids and bodybuilding. You know, like steroids and baseball or steroids and high school football, or steroids and MMA, or steroids and swimming etc etc etc etc. Screw it lets all just join hands and forget about protein and just shoot up on steroids instead. Its legal and good for our body's and it sets a great example for our kids to see and grow up with. Those freaks aren't bodybuilders. There drug users who cheat to get where they are today. I do not respect them or the use of steroids at all. THAT is my OPINION! And I was referring to earlier post that were presented as if we were to follow those steroid freaks guidelines to diet,nutrition,supplementing and workouts. I don't think so!!!

Your opinion is noted, but I'm not sure it's correct. If we're talking about pro bodybuilding, it really isn't any secret that all the top guys are on the drugs. So, I doubt you can call it "cheating" when everyone at that level is already using anyway. This isn't baseball.

As far as them being "drug users", so are you if you've ever tipped back a beer or a cup of coffee.

[stewy101]

Your opinion is noted, but I'm not sure it's correct. If we're talking about pro bodybuilding, it really isn't any secret that all the top guys are on the drugs. So, I doubt you can call it "cheating" when everyone at that level is already using anyway. This isn't baseball.

As far as them being "drug users", so are you if you've ever tipped back a beer or a cup of coffee.


Yeah this is true. I guess if all the top guys are using it then it makes it OK and right to do. I never thought of it that way..........NOT LOL. it's OK Supercell. I see where your mind and thoughts are on this matter. I am not going to argue with you anymore on this point. Just think about it like baseball though when guy's like Cal Ripken Jr or Ken Griffey Jr go down in history and the record books as two of the TRUE all natural greats of all time and try to compare them to guys like Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, Rafael Palmeiro, Manny Ramirez and so on and so on whom had to cheat to make there way to the top and now there carriers have been tarnished because of such use . NO this is NOT baseball. It was just a comparison to how steroids has ruined every competitive sport on the planet. And you are right about the beer and caffeine. Last time I checked those were legal and I was a alcohol and drug user for 20 something years and have been clean and sober and caffeine free for the last 3 years. I live a very clean and natural lifestyle as I can now because I know how much these things can harm ones body, mind and all around life as a whole. Take care of yourself and just keep working as hard as you can to be the best at whatever you strive for in life. Knowledge is power and the key to any success. Use it wisely and you can achieve anything.........

[SOJA]

Vegetables.

And starches, which fall under veggies and grains, correct?