Vegetarian Bodybuilding: why ignored

[ArunBaral]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so? you can get all the protein (and carbs if you choose to) minus all the fat and cholesterol. Vegeterian diet is easier to digest anyway. Raw vegeterian diet is even better. For example: Lentils and soybeans. Look up lentils: 600 cals per cup, 50 gms of protein. And dirt cheap. And mad healthy. How about eating a cup of lentils smootie with avocado and flavors every morning? Why is everyone hung on chicken, tuna and steak only?

[pink378]

they are plenty of vegetarian bodybuilders, and even vegan bodybuilders out there, you just need to search.

but because a lot of vegan protein sources are also high in carbs, it makes it hard to burn bodyfat during a cut, and stay lean overall without doing tons of cardio. that's why most bb's rely on pure protein sources such as meat and eggs, they are more concentrated sources of protein.

I am vegetarian and find myself gaining just as much muscle as any meat-eater. I was also vegan, and raw foodist, and although they are very healthy ways of eating I found it hard to maintain low levels of bodyfat because of the carbs. Maybe because I am just carb sensitive, dunno, but I decided to incorporate some dairy into my diet and am doing much better.

Plant protein is also more slow digesting so it's not optimal as a post-workout recovery meal when you need to replenish nutrients as quick as you can to stop muscle breakdown.

[Opies]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so? you can get all the protein (and carbs if you choose to) minus all the fat and cholesterol. Vegeterian diet is easier to digest anyway. Raw vegeterian diet is even better. For example: Lentils and soybeans. Look up lentils: 600 cals per cup, 50 gms of protein. And dirt cheap. And mad healthy. How about eating a cup of lentils smootie with avocado and flavors every morning? Why is everyone hung on chicken, tuna and steak only?

Because those are great and easy sources of protein?

There is nothing wrong with bodybuilding as a vegan or vegetarian; it is not only far from impossible, but actually very easy if you invest the time at the beginning to figure out how to do it. There are plenty of successful bodybuilders who have 'gone vegetarian' and there are others who have been vegetarian bodybuilders from the beginning. While they aren't ronnie or cutler, there are still vegetarians with very respectable bodies. There are also many vegetarians that play very physically demanding sports. I know there are a couple vegetarians in the UFC.

But anyway most people eat meat because: It is a great source of protein, it tastes great, and most importantly, they aren't vegetarians, so why would they care?

[stephendonald]

But anyway most people eat meat because: It is a great source of protein, it tastes great, and most importantly, they aren't vegetarians, so why would they care?

This.

[paulieGB]

they are plenty of vegetarian bodybuilders, and even vegan bodybuilders out there, you just need to search.

but because a lot of vegan protein sources are also high in carbs, it makes it hard to burn bodyfat during a cut, and stay lean overall without doing tons of cardio. that's why most bb's rely on pure protein sources such as meat and eggs, they are more concentrated sources of protein.

I am vegetarian and find myself gaining just as much muscle as any meat-eater. I was also vegan, and raw foodist, and although they are very healthy ways of eating I found it hard to maintain low levels of bodyfat because of the carbs. Maybe because I am just carb sensitive, dunno, but I decided to incorporate some dairy into my diet and am doing much better.

Plant protein is also more slow digesting so it's not optimal as a post-workout recovery meal when you need to replenish nutrients as quick as you can to stop muscle breakdown.


Great post,
I also did the raw vegan diet, and i was very cut but also very thin, lol, i had no problems lowering body fat. it did that without me trying.
You can't get big and muscular eating RAW vegan though, unless you eat LOTS of nuts everyday, which is not healthy and also its difficult to get most nuts that are actually RAW.
I think eating vegetarian is VERY easy to add muscle mass or get cut.
Vegan is also very possible to add muscle but a little more difficult to get cut, unless you take supplements and eat soy e.t.c.

[lift.iron]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so? you can get all the protein (and carbs if you choose to) minus all the fat and cholesterol. Vegeterian diet is easier to digest anyway. Raw vegeterian diet is even better. For example: Lentils and soybeans. Look up lentils: 600 cals per cup, 50 gms of protein. And dirt cheap. And mad healthy. How about eating a cup of lentils smootie with avocado and flavors every morning? Why is everyone hung on chicken, tuna and steak only?

its just a lot easyer if u just eat anything u can. the fats and cals and pro in a hunk of beef make it pretty easy to gain muscle. I am an omnivore an will pretty much eat ANY THING edable : friut vegitable animal and mineral this gives me the widest array of vitamins and nutriants possably avalable (and I make it a point to try new things plant or animal) eating like this helped me go from about 135lb when i was around 18 or so to a solid 190lbs now thats 55lbs of muscle in 9 years
i realy dont think i could have made those type of gians if i were a vegan

but then again i dont know much about vegan diets i do know of a pro bb who is a vegatieran :BILL PERL he is old now but in his day he was a top compedator and beat out arnold before the advent of the olimpia contest

[dillingerescp]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so? you can get all the protein (and carbs if you choose to) minus all the fat and cholesterol. Vegeterian diet is easier to digest anyway. Raw vegeterian diet is even better. For example: Lentils and soybeans. Look up lentils: 600 cals per cup, 50 gms of protein. And dirt cheap. And mad healthy. How about eating a cup of lentils smootie with avocado and flavors every morning? Why is everyone hung on chicken, tuna and steak only?

I had an old acquaintance who was a vegan bodybuilder. He had great genetics, however I am sure if he threw meat in their and cut out a lot of the extra calories from carbs and fat he had to eat to get protein, he'd have been better off.

But it was a morality thing for him, and if that is more important than his bodybuilding then I am no one to judge.

Personally, I just don't mind eating animals, and it's plenty healthy :)

[KLMARB]

For a different view, I suggest you check out Beyondveg.com....It discusses many of these issues..

[jbrowncbr]

ufc fighter matt hammil is a vegetarian and he's big

[dude57]

Bodybuilding.com has started bodygroups.
Join this great new group for people that want to be veggie and fit!

http://groups.bodybuilding.com/veggies_united

We can support each other along the way with recipes, veg supplements, resources, and more.

[Jay Rawd]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so? you can get all the protein (and carbs if you choose to) minus all the fat and cholesterol. Vegeterian diet is easier to digest anyway. Raw vegeterian diet is even better. For example: Lentils and soybeans. Look up lentils: 600 cals per cup, 50 gms of protein. And dirt cheap. And mad healthy. How about eating a cup of lentils smootie with avocado and flavors every morning? Why is everyone hung on chicken, tuna and steak only?
50 grams of protein and 600 calories can not be called a high protein food.

[Jay Rawd]

It's pretty hard to be vegetarian and get enough protein without adding too many carbs or fat. Non-animal protein sources and either high in carbs or fat so they're low in protein. Unless you just use whey as your primary protein source, but that gets booooooooooooooring quick.

[jvaughan08]

It's pretty hard to be vegetarian and get enough protein without adding too many carbs or fat. Non-animal protein sources and either high in carbs or fat so they're low in protein. Unless you just use whey as your primary protein source, but that gets booooooooooooooring quick.

I agree man, i have nothing against vegetarians, i mean i respect them i could never do it. chicken is full of b vitamins, lean beef if full of creatine, zinc, and so is tuna. plus they could have other benefits we do not know about. most of the protein in vegetarian diets is soy, which has given mixed results on if it effective at building muscle. i do believe that a vegan bodybuilder could get ripped outta his mind, but putting on alot of mass would be tough. protein powder can only be comsumed to a certain degree.

on the other hand beans and nuts are used in the diets of many fitness enthusiasts and body builders, so if vegans make sure they get plenty of these it could be very succesful

[veganmuscle_]

It's pretty hard to be vegetarian and get enough protein without adding too many carbs or fat. Non-animal protein sources and either high in carbs or fat so they're low in protein. Unless you just use whey as your primary protein source, but that gets booooooooooooooring quick.

Protein content of vegan food in 100 grams:

- Soy Protein Isolate natural = 90 grams
- Soy Protein Isolate Flavored = 85 grams
- Pea Protein = 85 grams
- Rice Protein = 76 grams
- Soy-granules = 51 grams
- Brewer's yeast = 48 grams
- Veggie sausages = 27.5 grams
- Peanuts natural = 26 grams
- Sunflower seeds = 24 grams
- almonds = 21 grams
- Pistachios = 21 grams
- Tofu "Sesame / almond" = 19 grams
- Tempeh = 19 grams
- Hazelnut = 15 grams
- Walnut = 15 grams
- Brazil Nuts = 14 grams
- Natural Tofu = 13.5 grams
- Oatmeal = 12.5 grams
- Noodles = 12 grams
- Bread = 10 grams
- Kidney beans cooked = 8 grams
- Rice = 8 grams
- Peas cooked = 5 grams
- Apricots, dried = 5 grams
- Brussels sprouts = 3.5 grams
- Soymilk = 3.3 grams
- Broccoli = 2.8 grams
- Mushrooms = 2.5 grams
- Cauliflower = 2.4 grams
- Baked potato = 2 grams protein

[chitownheadbusa]

Protein content of vegan food in 100 grams:

- Soy Protein Isolate natural = 90 grams
- Soy Protein Isolate Flavored = 85 grams
- Pea Protein = 85 grams
- Rice Protein = 76 grams
- Soy-granules = 51 grams
- Brewer's yeast = 48 grams
- Veggie sausages = 27.5 grams
- Peanuts natural = 26 grams
- Sunflower seeds = 24 grams
- almonds = 21 grams
- Pistachios = 21 grams
- Tofu "Sesame / almond" = 19 grams
- Tempeh = 19 grams
- Hazelnut = 15 grams
- Walnut = 15 grams
- Brazil Nuts = 14 grams
- Natural Tofu = 13.5 grams
- Oatmeal = 12.5 grams
- Noodles = 12 grams
- Bread = 10 grams
- Kidney beans cooked = 8 grams
- Rice = 8 grams
- Peas cooked = 5 grams
- Apricots, dried = 5 grams
- Brussels sprouts = 3.5 grams
- Soymilk = 3.3 grams
- Broccoli = 2.8 grams
- Mushrooms = 2.5 grams
- Cauliflower = 2.4 grams
- Baked potato = 2 grams protein


nice

im a Vegetarian.
i dont eat meats or dairy though.
i see a lot of people in here typing about vegan protein sources having lots of carbs and fats....you all must be talking about the almighty tofu.

soy protein powders arent superior like whey protein powders, but they still supply you with a nice amount of protein. plenty of the powders are low in carbs and fats. also, all that "estrogen in soy" talk is not as serious as you all may want to think.

beans are also a good source if you dont buy proccessed products and dont have major issues with gas build up. the carbs in beans are digested slowly.
when it comes to beans, its all about eating in moderation.

you also have one of my favs..organic golden flax seeds. i usually grind those up and add them to my soy potein shakes. good protein and plenty of other goodies.

trust me, i can go on and on about alternatives to meats and dairy products.
ive been challenged before by meat/dairy eaters and ended up winning most of my shouting battles...lol. theres really no justification as of why you need to eat meat and dairy products.....its mainly just personal preferences.

damn near all the nutrition that is found in dairy and meat products can be easily obtained from non dairy and meat products. the hardest vitamin some find hard to replace is the Vitamin B12. but even that can be easily replaced with nutritional yeast and different types of cereals.

i remember reading a piece done by bruce lee. he said Americans focus to much on protein and not enough on carbs. most Americans, even the vegitarians, get more than enough proteins that they need. some get so much that they end up doing more harm to their bodies than good.

personally, i just want to feel and look good.
i dont want the big steriod/shrink your dick muscles......so i dont stress the protein like others.
im not skinny nor am i fat.
ours bodies are all different and we react to things differently.
you really cant knock the vegi or carnivore lifestyle if you havent tried it.
with that being said....the vegi way is cool for me. :)

[jvaughan08]

Protein content of vegan food in 100 grams:

- Soy Protein Isolate natural = 90 grams
- Soy Protein Isolate Flavored = 85 grams
- Pea Protein = 85 grams
- Rice Protein = 76 grams
- Soy-granules = 51 grams
- Brewer's yeast = 48 grams
- Veggie sausages = 27.5 grams
- Peanuts natural = 26 grams
- Sunflower seeds = 24 grams
- almonds = 21 grams
- Pistachios = 21 grams
- Tofu "Sesame / almond" = 19 grams
- Tempeh = 19 grams
- Hazelnut = 15 grams
- Walnut = 15 grams
- Brazil Nuts = 14 grams
- Natural Tofu = 13.5 grams
- Oatmeal = 12.5 grams
- Noodles = 12 grams
- Bread = 10 grams
- Kidney beans cooked = 8 grams
- Rice = 8 grams
- Peas cooked = 5 grams
- Apricots, dried = 5 grams
- Brussels sprouts = 3.5 grams
- Soymilk = 3.3 grams
- Broccoli = 2.8 grams
- Mushrooms = 2.5 grams
- Cauliflower = 2.4 grams
- Baked potato = 2 grams protein
this is per 100 grams, 100 grams of almonds is pushing on 40 grams of fat. ya they are healthy but fat is fat, it's still nine calories per gram. same with peanut butter, the amino acids in veggies are often in complete as well

[Jay Rawd]

Protein content of vegan food in 100 grams:

- Soy Protein Isolate natural = 90 grams
- Soy Protein Isolate Flavored = 85 grams
- Pea Protein = 85 grams
- Rice Protein = 76 grams
- Soy-granules = 51 grams
- Brewer's yeast = 48 grams
- Veggie sausages = 27.5 grams
- Peanuts natural = 26 grams
- Sunflower seeds = 24 grams
- almonds = 21 grams
- Pistachios = 21 grams
- Tofu "Sesame / almond" = 19 grams
- Tempeh = 19 grams
- Hazelnut = 15 grams
- Walnut = 15 grams
- Brazil Nuts = 14 grams
- Natural Tofu = 13.5 grams
- Oatmeal = 12.5 grams
- Noodles = 12 grams
- Bread = 10 grams
- Kidney beans cooked = 8 grams
- Rice = 8 grams
- Peas cooked = 5 grams
- Apricots, dried = 5 grams
- Brussels sprouts = 3.5 grams
- Soymilk = 3.3 grams
- Broccoli = 2.8 grams
- Mushrooms = 2.5 grams
- Cauliflower = 2.4 grams
- Baked potato = 2 grams protein
You pretty much backed up what I said. Alot of those foods have less than 25% of their calories from protein. That's not high protein.

Beef, chicken, fish, cheese, eggs, pork, and other animal products have way more protein per 100 grams than that. Using vegan sources for protein just adds alot of carbs and fat which can make it very easy to overdo calories.

Even vegetarians can have whey, cheese, and eggs at times. Vegans are pretty much screwed unless they get their gemma protein as their main source. Nuts and legumes are not high in protein. They HAVE protein, but bodybuilding isn't about just eating protein, it's about eating alot of it.

How a vegan bodybuilder could get around 1.5 grams /lb in protein and not go way overboard on caloric requirements for mass is beyond me. It is true that you need calories to grow, but if you're getting alot of low protein foods you're gonna get too many calories beyond what is needed to build mass and you're just gonna add fat.

Post up a typical day's diet, show me the macro breakdown of protein, carbs, fats, total calories, and then I'll believe you.

[fyrefly816]

This site might help: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

Proof that vegans can put on the muscle too! Lots of good tips for vegetarians as well!

[Jay Rawd]

nice

im a Vegetarian.
i dont eat meats or dairy though.
i see a lot of people in here typing about vegan protein sources having lots of carbs and fats....you all must be talking about the almighty tofu.



Did you even READ his list? The majority of those sources had less than 25% of their calories from protein! That's weak!


soy protein powders arent superior like whey protein powders, but they still supply you with a nice amount of protein. plenty of the powders are low in carbs and fats. also, all that "estrogen in soy" talk is not as serious as you all may want to think.

That's not the reason I reject soy. It is true that the estrogen issue is blown way out of proportion and is misinterpreted. However, soy protein powders tend to have a 1:1 ratio of carbs to protein whereas whey powders have an almost 0:1 ratio of carbs (and fat) to protein. Some powders are actually 100% protein, which is basically the ideal. It's not a high protein product if it is isocalorically matched with carbs and fats. I just saw some GeniSoy and Spirutein products that had more carbs than they did protein! Come on!

Not to mention that soy protein powders are more expensive than whey powders. Whey is about the cheapest source of protein (and most concentrated) while soy is not high in protein and is much more expensive. What would you rather take?

Here's an example. A whey pwoder (ON Whey Gold Standard) has about 28 servings. It costs 12.99. Compare that to a Soy Powder (GeniSoy) that costs 14.99 and has 15 servings. Oh, not to mention that the Whey has 23 grams of protein per serving (and is 120 calories), while the Soy has a mere 14 grams per serving and is 140 calories. More calories, way less protein, and about twice the cost.


beans are also a good source if you dont buy proccessed products and dont have major issues with gas build up. the carbs in beans are digested slowly.
when it comes to beans, its all about eating in moderation.

Beans have a 2:1 carbs to protein ratio. 6 grams of protein (rather weak) in a 1/2 cup but you also get 12 grams of carbs along with that. Beans are also like $2 a can, with about 2-3 servings that provide only 6 grams of protein. Again, beans as a protein source isn't a good idea. Don't get me wrong, I eat beans. Alot. But I use them as a carb source. I'm not saying I don't count the protein in them, but if they were a main protein source, I'd come up short. Unless I ate no other carbs except beans. Then I could theoretically have a good diet with 2 grams of carbs for every gram of protein, but that is way too many beans in one day and too much cooking (and spending).


you also have one of my favs..organic golden flax seeds. i usually grind those up and add them to my soy potein shakes. good protein and plenty of other goodies.

Per serving is only 3 grams of protein and 60 calories. Not exactly high protein. It's more of a fat source than a protein source.

That's why I see veggie bbing as a problem, because alot of them use fat/carb sources as protein sources and come up short on protein or meet their protein needs but strongly overdo their calories (or they end up consuming alot of protein powder that makes for a very boring diet that I would get sick of).


trust me, i can go on and on about alternatives to meats and dairy products.
ive been challenged before by meat/dairy eaters and ended up winning most of my shouting battles...lol. theres really no justification as of why you need to eat meat and dairy products.....its mainly just personal preferences.

Well, aside from the lower cost, the higher concentration of protein, meat and dairy also have better amino acid profiles than veggie sources.

Let's see, what would I rather do: spend alot of money, or drink alot of powder, get fat by strongly overdoing my calories to meet protein requirements from weak sources, and not even have a complete protein breakdown,

or would I rather just save money, save calories, have a less boring diet, not get fat, and have a complete protein breakdown?

Meat it is.


damn near all the nutrition that is found in dairy and meat products can be easily obtained from non dairy and meat products. the hardest vitamin some find hard to replace is the Vitamin B12. but even that can be easily replaced with nutritional yeast and different types of cereals.

Sounds like a huge hassle to me. I'd rather eat a big ole steak than try and find cereal. More protein, cheaper, and tastier.


i remember reading a piece done by bruce lee. he said Americans focus to much on protein and not enough on carbs. most Americans, even the vegitarians, get more than enough proteins that they need. some get so much that they end up doing more harm to their bodies than good.

Americans focus alot on protein? :eek:

Americans don't focus on carbs? :eek:

Show me a typical Western diet and I'll show you a diet that is high in carbs and low in protein. I thought this was known by everyone?

Where did Bruce Lee write this, anyway? Furthermore, who cares? Bruce Lee did way more physical activity than you and I so he of course needed way more carbs. Not only that, but Bruce Lee wasn't a bodybuilder so anything he said regarding a bodybuilder's goals is irrelevant. If you want to look like Bruce Lee, fine. Most here do not.

Not only that, but protein doesn't harm any BODY that is already healthy. The thing about kidneys only affects those with a pre-existing condition. The thing about osteoporosis is only relevant to those with poor calcium intake. With a diet high in essential micronutrients, a bodybuilder actually does GOOD by overeating protein.


personally, i just want to feel and look good.

Because overeating protein can put you in the ER/turn you into a gigantic monster, correct? :rolleyes:


i dont want the big steriod/shrink your dick muscles......so i dont stress the protein like others.

Protein isn't a steroid.

Eating alot of protein will not make you look like you take steroids. Taking steroids will make you look like that. Who would have known? :rolleyes:

Bodybuilders don't overeat protein because they think it will make them grow extra muscle, but because bodybuilders NEED extra protein because weightlifting breaks down muscle tissue so we NEED to repair it. The extra protein is eaten to help the body recover, not because we think it will make us grow huge 20 inch biceps. Have you even researched anything about nutrition?


im not skinny nor am i fat.
ours bodies are all different and we react to things differently.
you really cant knock the vegi or carnivore lifestyle if you havent tried it.
with that being said....the vegi way is cool for me. :)

I can definitely knock the vegi lifestyle because research backs me up.

That said, I actually lived the majority of my life as a vegetarian and I was weak and skinny-fat.

Is it possible to get enough protein/right quality as a vegetarian? Yes. But it's also not cost-effective or ideal when trying to count calories.

[jvaughan08]

i mean a vegetarian could pull it off if they ate cheese, milk and fish, i know vegetarians who eat fish, if you do that you will be perfectly ok in my opinion with a legitimate protein powder for pre and post workout

[Jay Rawd]

i mean a vegetarian could pull it off if they ate cheese, milk and fish, i know vegetarians who eat fish, if you do that you will be perfectly ok in my opinion with a legitimate protein powder for pre and post workout
I was talking about vegans mainly.

If you ate alot of cheese and eggs along with whey here and there you'd be fine protein-wise. You don't even need fish with dairy and eggs. Whey is a dairy by-product, so vegans don't take it, but lacto-ovo vegetarians do.

[jvaughan08]

I was talking about vegans mainly.

If you ate alot of cheese and eggs along with whey here and there you'd be fine protein-wise. You don't even need fish with dairy and eggs. Whey is a dairy by-product, so vegans don't take it, but lacto-ovo vegetarians do.

oooooo my bad bro. ya man it would be tough for a vegan you're right man. the protein just is not there

[Jay Rawd]

oooooo my bad bro. ya man it would be tough for a vegan you're right man. the protein just is not there
BTW that's a nice physique. What's your diet like?

[jvaughan08]

BTW that's a nice physique. What's your diet like?

well, im in season for hockey so it's high protein, moderate to high carbs, low fat, i weight train to so i need carbs. in the off season i go lower carb and higher fat typically cause at my work i sit on my ass all day

[Jay Rawd]

well, im in season for hockey so it's high protein, moderate to high carbs, low fat, i weight train to so i need carbs. in the off season i go lower carb and higher fat typically cause at my work i sit on my ass all day
So you're planning to do Keto in the off-season?

[jvaughan08]

So you're planning to do Keto in the off-season?

I've never done it before Im gonna give it a try, i wanna try the one on the other forum, where you eat carbs on friday and saturday but i dunno for sure man. i wanna get really lean

[Jay Rawd]

I've never done it before Im gonna give it a try, i wanna try the one on the other forum, where you eat carbs on friday and saturday but i dunno for sure man. i wanna get really lean
Keto has no magical properties for leaning you out than a higher carb diet. Just make sure to eat enough protein and have a caloric deficit and you'll get ripped. It's that simple. Dropping carbs for favor of fats while keeping calories the same as a higher carb diet yields the exact same effect.

[G-sus]

Was a vegetarian for 9 years, from the age of 8 to early 17s. Just recently started eating meats. Is it possible? Yes, totally possible. Thing is, it sucks if you're trying to cut down, as there are tons of carbs/fats in these diets.
Plus Soy will mess up your thyroid big time if taken at high levels.

[jvaughan08]

Was a vegetarian for 9 years, from the age of 8 to early 17s. Just recently started eating meats. Is it possible? Yes, totally possible. Thing is, it sucks if you're trying to cut down, as there are tons of carbs/fats in these diets.
Plus Soy will mess up your thyroid big time if taken at high levels.

it can mess with your kidneys as well

[TravisBarrett]

Why bother with all the trouble ? its much more natural and healthy to eat what our bodies are designed to do.

[PopeGregorius]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so?

Why are there no vegans? Are you really that stupid.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/justin2.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kristi15.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler53.htm

[veganmuscle_]

Was a vegetarian for 9 years, from the age of 8 to early 17s. Just recently started eating meats. Is it possible? Yes, totally possible. Thing is, it sucks if you're trying to cut down, as there are tons of carbs/fats in these diets.
Plus Soy will mess up your thyroid big time if taken at high levels.

As a vegetarian, there is no need for soy. Skim milk, Cottage cheese, Egg white --> lean protein sources.

For vegans (soy free sources): rice protein, pea protein - Gemma protein isolate, hemp protein --> lean protein sources. mix it for a great Biological value (BV).

[veganmuscle_]

Vegans are pretty much screwed unless they get their gemma protein as their main source. Nuts and legumes are not high in protein. They HAVE protein, but bodybuilding isn't about just eating protein, it's about eating alot of it.

How a vegan bodybuilder could get around 1.5 grams /lb in protein and not go way overboard on caloric requirements for mass is beyond me..

nobody need 1.5 grams /lb......that's an overkill.

A day plan, vegan:
#1 Selfmade Pudding with soy/riceprotein, linseed oil: protein=40 cal=250
#2 100 Gram almonds, fruits: protein=20 cal=708
#3 Kidneybreans with corn bread: protein=40 cal=650
Training
#4 Postworkout Shake with oatdrink: protein=40 cal=200
#5 Pasta, lot of veggies, mushrooms: protein=20 cal=700
#6 soy/riceprotein in peanut mush: protein=55 cal=550

Total: 215 Gram Protein, 3058 cal

[Blindead]

the whole soy thing is blown out of proportion. yeah it's not the most perfect food. the only major beef I have with it is the one thing I almost never hear mentioned: the presence of anti-nutrients in any soy product that isn't fermented. unless you have an enormous boner for soy and consume it in enormous amounts every day it's really a non-issue. I used to be afraid of phyto-estrogens and I still don't think they're the most optimal thing to consume, but there's a lot worse **** out there you can put in your body than isoflavones.

that being said: vegetarian bodybuilding is ignored because no one cares enough to recognize someone for their dietary choices. oh wow, you don't eat meat, why do I give a ****? i don't eat trans fat, oh god look at me I'm a trans-fat free weightlifter!!!!!! if you don't eat meat, cool, keep it to yourself because I couldn't care less.

and while i'm on a roll: no one start on complete/incomplete proteins. as I've gradually learned that stuff is so 1970's and more or less crap.

[veganmuscle_]

I used to be afraid of phyto-estrogens and I still don't think they're the most optimal thing to consume, but there's a lot worse **** out there you can put in your body than isoflavones.


Soy protein isolates (SPI) are free of isoflavones (also phyto-estrogens) and anti-nutrients. On the other hand, there are rice-,gemma-,hemp-proteins valuable.

[reefpicker]

it can mess with your kidneys as well

Not true.



Plus Soy will mess up your thyroid big time if taken at high levels.

Give me a well documented case, and then we will talk about it. Otherwise, also not true.



Did you even READ his list? The majority of those sources had less than 25% of their calories from protein! That's weak!



Depends on your dietary goals.



That's not the reason I reject soy. It is true that the estrogen issue is blown way out of proportion and is misinterpreted. However, soy protein powders tend to have a 1:1 ratio of carbs to protein whereas whey powders have


Mostly untrue.

Soy protein is the cheapest source of protein. That's why a lot of the protein bars use SPI.

The only reason whey protein powder has more protein than carb is because they use splenda or acesulfame or some other artificial sweetener.

In the past, Walmart sold a protein powder that had no sugar or little sugar, but it tasted bad. Now they have a new one that uses splenda. So, it fits your more-protein-than-carb rule. I forget how much it is but it is comparable to the whey protein I usually use.... In fact, I no longer buy whey protein.




I can definitely knock the vegi lifestyle because research backs me up.


Better than what? That is a relative term. And what research?





That said, I actually lived the majority of my life as a vegetarian and I was weak and skinny-fat.

Is it possible to get enough protein/right quality as a vegetarian? Yes. But it's also not cost-effective or ideal when trying to count calories.

Not in my experience.

I am a vegetarian and I don't consider myself weak or skinny fat.

[Vagitarian]

Better than what? That is a relative term. And what research?

Not in my experience.

I am a vegetarian and I don't consider myself weak or skinny fat.

He's saying a diet with meat is better, which it is.

And I just looked at your pics, you are skinny fat.

[jvaughan08]

Not true.

Oh, well that settles it I'm convinced great explanation

[eddiebo]

He's saying a diet with meat is better, which it is.

And I just looked at your pics, you are skinny fat.

Reefpicker is trying to keep anti vegetarian dogma on BB.com to a minimum, which there is too much.

And why are you looking at pics of guys?

[eddiebo]

Oh, well that settles it I'm convinced great explanation

The original claim was unprecedented. So, no need for explaination, or did I miss something?

[Catchol]

And why are you looking at pics of guys?

It's called "due diligence"

Why are you asking stupid questions?

[jvaughan08]

The original claim was unprecedented. So, no need for explaination, or did I miss something?

naw bro I just said too much soy can mess with your kidneys, I never said it will happen to everyone, the fact remains that some people are susceptible to kidney stones on diets high in soy.

[eddiebo]

naw bro I just said too much soy can mess with your kidneys, I never said it will happen to everyone, the fact remains that some people are susceptible to kidney stones on diets high in soy.

You mean high in protein? Surely not soy specifically.

[eddiebo]

It's called "due diligence"

Why are you asking stupid questions?

Perhaps I am wrong and he is sincere in his statements.
I interpreted as an insult, not due diligence.

[jvaughan08]

You mean high in protein? Surely not soy specifically.

Mostly protein ya man, food that they add soy protien like veggie burgers and such. I think soy milk is ok though, i know studies are not inconsistent but Soy protein has been linked to cause kidney problems, specifically kidney stones.

I'm not hatin on vegans or vegetarians just givin my opinion. I think a vegetarian would have no problems, egg whites,cheese, cottage cheese, all high quality proteins, but a vegan would have some difficulties to overcome for sure

[eddiebo]

naw bro I just said too much soy can mess with your kidneys, I never said it will happen to everyone, the fact remains that some people are susceptible to kidney stones on diets high in soy.

I see what you are refering to - the oxylate crystal business, this is the first I have heard of it. Was saying before - my understanding is a high protein diet can greatly contribution to kidney stones. Seems odd that regularly eating fruits, grains and legumes that contain oxylate would be so bad. Though you may have something there, too much of one particular thing may have a definite downside, vegetarians often time do consume a lot of soy.

[Catchol]

Perhaps I am wrong and he is sincere in his statements.
I interpreted as an insult, not due diligence.

I had the opposite interpretation:

A: "I'm not skinny-fat"
B (after viewing some pictures of A): "Yes you are"

[Jay Rawd]

Reefpicker is trying to keep anti vegetarian dogma on BB.com to a minimum, which there is too much.

And why are you looking at pics of guys?
He posted up his own pics, stupid. Using your logic, we must never look at Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler again because doing so is TEH GHEY

[eddiebo]

I had the opposite interpretation:

A: "I'm not skinny-fat"
B (after viewing some pictures of A): "Yes you are"

Skinny-fat is subjective

[eddiebo]

He posted up his own pics, stupid. Using your logic, we must never look at Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler again because doing so is TEH GHEY

It's not really my logic, just trying to be cutting, unsuccessfully I guess.
Maybe should have asked him why he chose the name vagitarian (does he have something to prove?) may have been better, I dunno.
Striking out today.

[reefpicker]

You gotta love this place.... LOL ;)



He's saying a diet with meat is better, which it is.


I don't think I was attacking that. So there goes your argument.



And I just looked at your pics, you are skinny fat.

Interesting. To be skinny fat, I would have to be skinny first. I don't think my arms, or chest are skinny. I do have some fat in my stomach, so if that counts as being fat, ok. But skinny fat? nope. I am not skinny by any standard.

I never said I was super pumped, super man, or anything. But to say I am skinny fat is preposterous at best. I am b/w 10-12% BF.

But I don't have to defend myself. Your opinion is your opinion.




Oh, well that settles it I'm convinced great explanation

Unfounded statements require no proof to be refuted.

To put it in another way, as the late Carl Sagan was fund of saying, Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

I have never heard that soy damages kidneys. If he had said Pancreas, I would know exactly what he is talking about.

Let me be even more poignant: What is the counterclaim to that claim? A study showing that soy does not affect kidney health? A study showing the health benefits of soy?

The first would be hard to find for me if I do not know what the supposed mechanism for soy to damage kidneys is (hence, I would need more than a blanket statement).

The second would be stupid. Such claims can be made for any fruit, vegetable, etc. I personally, do not believe in any of those epidemiologic/comparative studies...

So unless the poster gives a SPECIFIC mechanism, disease, etc, it requires no proof or counter-evidence, mostly because there is not enough information for me (from the poster) to write any kind of informed argument.

IME People here associate meat-eating with masculinity. Hence, they see vegetarianism as a weakness. To reinforce that misogynist attitude, they almost always make mention of soy's purposed estrogenic effects. Regardless if its true or not true, soy products do not seem to cause any significant estrogenic effects on the body when consumed in the amounts we do. At least, I haven't seen anyone loosing muscle, growing breast, or ovulating. ;) Like Eddie pointed out, I am merely trying to bring some balance to the discussion and some objectivity (well, make that counter point, as I am relatively partial to the pro-soy camp being a vegetarian myself).

[PaytonsBears]

50 cent is a vegan. Hes still swoll.

[Catchol]

IME People here associate meat-eating with masculinity. Hence, they see vegetarianism as a weakness. To reinforce that misogynist attitude, they almost always make mention of soy's purposed estrogenic effects.

Your logic is hideously flawed. The embracing of masculinity by men is not tantamount to misogyny any more than the embracing of femininity by women is tantamount to misandry.

[Holyspokes]

Your logic is hideously flawed. The embracing of masculinity by men is not tantamount to misogyny any more than the embracing of femininity by women is tantamount to misandry.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying (sorry) but the very first part of his sentence is definitely true..

[eddiebo]

Your logic is hideously flawed. The embracing of masculinity by men is not tantamount to misogyny any more than the embracing of femininity by women is tantamount to misandry.

Not sure exactly sure why you phased what you said as you did, (not sure that hate of the opposite sex is perfectly fitting) so will make assumptions and say...

Hunting is a "manly" sport, no?
Do you have Carl's Junior Ads in your neck of the woods?
How about Black Angus commercials portraying a burly masculine guy at a campfire eating steak off of a knife.

In a manly voice, cowboy says, "Beef, it's what's for dinner".

I know these aren't the best examples but you can see wherest there may be validity, at the very least, what is portrayed in the media industry.

[Catchol]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying (sorry) but the very first part of his sentence is definitely true..

He's equating masculinity (or the desire for it) to misogyny, which is the hatred of women. This is analogous to saying, "All people who desire to be in shape hate fat people."

He's probably a "Nice Guy", in which case his ideas about gender identity are probably really screwed up anyway.

[Catchol]

Not sure exactly sure why you phased what you said as you did, (not sure that hate of the opposite sex is perfectly fitting) so will make assumptions and say...

Those were his words, not mine. Did you not see the part where I quoted him?

[eddiebo]

Those were his words, not mine. Did you not see the part where I quoted him?

Got it. I overlooked misogyny. Though, still assuming the word chosen has to be in haste.

[reefpicker]

He's equating masculinity (or the desire for it) to misogyny, which is the hatred of women. This is analogous to saying, "All people who desire to be in shape hate fat people."

He's probably a "Nice Guy", in which case his ideas about gender identity are probably really screwed up anyway.

If by nice guy you mean gay, yes I am.

In the quest to better my understanding about myself, I have read a lot about the issue and in fact, I am probably a lot more informed than you about the formation of gender identity. Just like many diabetics know a lot more about the biology of insulin than the average joe.

To spell out my logic:

a) Masculinity is the opposite of feminity
b) A lack of masculinity implies Feminity
c) By seeing a lack of masculinity as a weakness, you are seeing feminity as a weakness
d) Misogeny is a strong word, and it does not imply the "hate" of woman but of feminizing qualities (at least in this context).
e) Ergo, I equated the hating of soy with the hating of the feminization of a man.

The same argument has been made about other social paradigms. In general, society sees woman as weak, and anything that is associated with it in men is disliked and discouraged.

I perhaps should have used a less strong term, such as chauvinism. To me, they are all the same, but I guess to some, they are not. Regardless of if you see woman as weak or not, it is still a negative attitude towards them as persons, even if you do not "hate" them.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

But the idea is still the same.

PD Interestingly enough, the reason I may have used misogyny instead of chauvinism is because neither word is common in the psychology literature. They pertain more to the domain of the feminist movement. In psychology and sociology, terms such as Oedipus complex, the feminine identity, cultural bias, etc are often used. Thus, I have really never come across a street term for the idea of a male bias in the culture and how we perceive feminine qualities as weak. In actuality, these terms describe better what I had in mind that either of the other, more feminist terms.

[reefpicker]

his ideas about gender identity are probably really screwed up anyway.

That is very offensive language. Completely uncalled for.

You are saying that my ideas about gender identity are "screwed up" just because I do not like to sleep with woman?

For someone who called me on a feminist term, you really do not understand what gender identity means. Even the feminist movement made it very clear that gender identity does not equal sexual identity or sexual preference.

The human psyche is much more complex than that...

I did not came out in this forums so that people will use that knowledge of my personal life to surreptitiously insert comments in their post, ad hominem comments, in order to discredit my postings.

That comment was out of line.

The only thing that you could be right about is that I do not care about whether what I do is perceived as socially acceptable or not. However, I do carry myself in a way that conforms to most standards of masculinity in this society, mostly because I was acultured to be a man. But if someone told me I was not "manly" enough, I would just laugh in their face. I could care less.

And the only reason I brought up being gay at some post, was because I was talking about my partner. I said that I was latino too. Both are personal details about my life, and both are things I am not ashamed of.

[Catchol]

If by nice guy you mean gay, yes I am.

No, I mean Nice Guy -- the exact opposite of a "Bad Boy". Sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. I had no idea you were gay until you told me. I do apologize if you were offended, this was not my intent. I was poking fun at "Nice Guys", not gays.


In the quest to better my understanding about myself, I have read a lot about the issue and in fact, I am probably a lot more informed than you about the formation of gender identity.

It's possible.




To spell out my logic:

a) Masculinity is the opposite of feminity

True


b) A lack of masculinity implies Feminity

So there's no gender neutrality in your world?


c) By seeing a lack of masculinity as a weakness, you are seeing feminity as a weakness

Evolutionarily speaking, strongly "feminine" traits -- if not a weakness -- are certainly a disadvantage when exhibited by men.


d) Misogeny is a strong word, and it does not imply the "hate" of woman but of feminizing qualities (at least in this context).

You're trying to change the definition of the word.


e) Ergo, I equated the hating of soy with the hating of the feminization of a man.

Even still, this isn't misogyny, except by your own convoluted definition.


In general, society sees woman as weak, and anything that is associated with it in men is disliked and discouraged.

Do you have convincing evidence with which to support this claim?


I perhaps should have used a less strong term, such as chauvinism. To me, they are all the same, but I guess to some, they are not. Regardless of if you see woman as weak or not, it is still a negative attitude towards them as persons, even if you do not "hate" them.

It's still not necessarily chauvinism, since chauvinism requires a state of mind which views women as inferior. You can be hypermasculine and still respectful of women, but the Nice Guy is a man who does not believe this is possible.


I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Me too.


PD Interestingly enough, the reason I may have used misogyny instead of chauvinism is because neither word is common in the psychology literature. They pertain more to the domain of the feminist movement.

The fact that the feminist movement resurrected the common use of this word does not mean they get to control how it's used.


Thus, I have really never come across a street term for the idea of a male bias in the culture and how we perceive feminine qualities as weak.

That's plain old sexism.

[reefpicker]

Apology accepted. It was a misunderstanding. Let's move on, as this is a rather interesting topic. Albeit, its not nutrition related, but who cares, its science at least.




So there's no gender neutrality in your world?



LOL @ "your world". Sounds like something I would think, but not say.

In a perfect world, there might be a "gender neutral" individual. But like anything in nature, a true balance rarely exists. We are always inclined towards one or the other.

There are gender neutral words, and the culture is attempting to move towards gender "neutralism". Alas, in terms of mentality, I do not think there is a true "gender neutral" mentality.



Evolutionarily speaking, strongly "feminine" traits -- if not a weakness -- are certainly a disadvantage when exhibited by men.


You are right, but that is only true if man did not live in an extremely advanced society. It is a remnant of evolution.

Interestingly, some anthropologists have theorized that women are choosing more feminine man. Recent studies have shown that women prefer man that have less strong testosterone-related secondary characters. Why? Because in our modern society, a "social" man is preferred over a violent man. In fact, there is a trade-off between a "protector"/"hunter" and promiscuity/violence. I forget the details but thats the general idea.

This tendency may have given raise to the "metrosexual" and IMO may be favoring the passing of a putative "gay" gene. (of course, it does not explain the "lesbian" gene, so IDK how true this is!)




You're trying to change the definition of the word.


No. I did not know it well. And I accept my ignorance. I am not familiar with all those feminist terms, I guess :D



Even still, this isn't misogyny, except by your own convoluted definition.


Let's agree to disagree. I am extremely eloquent as you can see. I may not have the authority to change the definition of a word, but given some context to its usage, I think I can safely use that word in a new way. As long as you provide that context (which I did, a posteriori), its ok.




Do you have convincing evidence with which to support this claim?




It's still not necessarily chauvinism, since chauvinism requires a state of mind which views women as inferior. You can be hypermasculine and still respectful of women, but the Nice Guy is a man who does not believe this is possible.


Interesting view.

I do not think we are talking about the same thing.

Part of your problem in how you view this, is that you have to understand that I am not talking about an OVERT chauvisitic attitude.

I began exploring all of these, when I had a boyfriend who was sexually abused as a kid. I started reading about this topic.... Gender identity, sexual identity, the formation of the masculine identity... They are all very fascinating...

Thus, it is hard for me to come up with one single "good" example that does not involve sex, because that was the context in which I learned about these topics.

Here are some others that I can think of:
*Language: Terms associated with women are equated with negative things. Sissy (see more below), "bitch", "p--u--s-sy", etc.
*Negative terms associated with gay men are often, if not always, associated with female characteristic: queen, sissy, and others. Will&Grace is a perfect example of this idea. Also: -cck sucker-, and other similar terms in Spanish and English.
*idiomatic expressions: "you have no balls" is a bad thing, while "you got balls" is a positive thing... "getting your panties in a bunch",

The ultimate test of this concept is that penetration is always seen as a dominant act, while reception is seen as submissive. While not always, often the act of performing oral sex on a man is seen as submissive too. Idiomatic expression such as "fck you", "if you don't like it you can suck my -penis-", etc are clear examples of this general idea.

When analyzing this, you have to keep in mind that women (in their sexual role), will be the ones "fck", they will (hopefully) gratuitously "suck" your "penis", etc.


All in all, derogatory language usually comes from slangs for homosexuals, female body parts, or female sexual acts (on males).

For example, a women can't say "eat my pussy" as a slang for "I don't care", or "fk me" as a slang substitute for "fk you". Yet I can tell a women, "wow, you got balls" and it will not be an insult.

English is not as bad as Spanish in this. Or maybe I am not as familiar with all the slang. In Spanish, for example, "crical" which comes from the slang word for the female genitals, means that something is out of order. And when something goes wrong (i.e. a match does not light, or a pistol does not fire), they say that it "salio pato", literally: "it came out gay".

By using such slang in our language, what image do we connote of women? This is of course, at a very subconscious level. Neither you, nor any other educated men I know will think of this in a conscious level, and I would not blame you for any of this either. It is not our fault. But by acknowledging it, we can make a bit of a difference.

[eddiebo]

Our living realities are tiny microcosms in a vast world of cognitive possibilities. What we see effects us no matter how much we ignore or think about things, (hopefully more the latter than former). The world and its people surrounding us cannot express messages without portraying certain perceived possibilities, whether intended or not. I think is near impossible to communicate honestly and deeply without divulging the puzzle pieces of who we are and how we've gotten there.

Things as small as the series (arrangement) of words and images, to the overall intended ideas themselves. These concepts are all around us in media and the words of others, along with the perceiver's interpretation, ultimately will make some conclusions and definitions of the world around us, thats what we do.

Starting from our youth, our peer groups often reinforce or deny our ideas, beliefs and actions and as result even maybe even our way of thinking. All of society thereafter can keep this concept alive. This is just the way it goes as we are social creatures, though will say I am sometimes disappointed that knowledge and intelligence does not always win out.

Human beings need to express themselves and know they are understood. Though. I think when you bring communication down to the basic fundamentals and what is left is the key. Things too far beyond the fundamentals personally make me think what else is going on there.

Some of the basics of communication I can think of:

To express a need, want or desire. IE Am hungry we need to eat (simple example, I know). I've known some do this without knowing they are.

For entertainment of others and thus feel gratification from it.

To share ones thoughts and feelings, thus associating these and relating with others.


Although I know some that can live life, speaking without thinking and simply regurgitating perceived ideas and acting from the innate. I think if those folks saw the other side or were 'called' on their behavior they would definitely give a go to changing their behavior.

[veganmuscle_]

This skinny-fat story is nonsense!

Bodyfat is a question of calorie-intake!
Muscle Mass (Muscle hypertrophy) is a question of High Intensity Training (smart & hard training with heavy iron)!

Mike Mahler, Mac Danzig are great role models for successful, ripped & muscley vegan athletes.

[paulieGB]

what does meat have that seeds don't have ?

i mean a mix of seeds - sesame, flax, hemp.

[Distance]

what does meat have that seeds don't have ?

i mean a mix of seeds - sesame, flax, hemp.

B-12, Retinol, K2, carnosine, creatine, AA, EPA, DHA, CLA

[paulieGB]

Thanks for the reply,

Can all of that be found in eggs ?

[eddiebo]

Some of what a vegetarian diet would need can be found in eggs (more specifically in the yolks), fyi. the whites are mostly protein htough have B2 and selenium.

Along with all of the essential nutrients, my understanding is most vegetarian diets need make certain you get enough:
B Vitamins (namely B12)
Iron
Zinc
Protein
EFA's
Calcium

[lobstah555]

there is more and more stuff coming about about red meat not being very healthy in the long term. just read an article where they tested 500,000 people age 50-71 and those who consumed red meat had more health problems/deaths compared to those who consumed less or did not consume red meat at all. there is more stuff published every day on this topic, it is just not publicized...

one thing we can all do is reduce % of animal protein and this according to all work being done on this subject will have a noticeable positive effect on our long term health.

on top of this, here in the states pollution from animal industry has a huge negative effect on the environment.



A big hunk of steak, or some lentils.. I know which i'd prefer!

Even if it is possible to do it on a Vegan diet, why would I ever do that when I can do it more easily, and more enjoyabley on a meat based diet?

[reefpicker]

Some of what a vegetarian diet would need can be found in eggs (more specifically in the yolks), fyi. the whites are mostly protein htough have B2 and selenium.

Along with all of the essential nutrients, my understanding is most vegetarian diets need make certain you get enough:
B Vitamins (namely B12)
Iron
Zinc
Protein
EFA's
Calcium

Iron is not that big of a deal for vegetarians and vegans. Zinc, calcium and protein are not a big deal if you are ovolactate vegetarian.

If you are ovolactate pescaterean, then your only worry might be B12.

B12 is actually the biggest concern. I think that nutritional yeast for vegans is enhanced with vegan sources of B12, but I am not 100% sure. Another source is enriched soy milk (containing up to 50% B12)

B12 is what has been theorized as the biggest contribution from hunting meat. Although, this is kind of a chicken and the egg problem, did we evolve a better brain to be hunters or because we are hunters we were able to develop a better brain? Either way, it is thought that B12 is the source for that evolutionary leap.

[RDFinders]

Iron is not that big of a deal for vegetarians and vegans. Zinc, calcium and protein are not a big deal if you are ovolactate vegetarian.

If you are ovolactate pescaterean, then your only worry might be B12.

B12 is actually the biggest concern. I think that nutritional yeast for vegans is enhanced with vegan sources of B12, but I am not 100% sure. Another source is enriched soy milk (containing up to 50% B12)

B12 is what has been theorized as the biggest contribution from hunting meat. Although, this is kind of a chicken and the egg problem, did we evolve a better brain to be hunters or because we are hunters we were able to develop a better brain? Either way, it is thought that B12 is the source for that evolutionary leap.

pescaterians don't need to worry about B12 as they include fish in their diets. B12 isn't that huge of an issue for vegans as if is found in sea plants as well as nutritional yeast and vegan products are being fortified nowadays.

vegans have plenty of non-dairy and non-soy protein sources so getting enough protein isn't an issue if they are eating a balanced diet.

[exy]

its just a lot easyer if u just eat anything u can. the fats and cals and pro in a hunk of beef make it pretty easy to gain muscle. I am an omnivore an will pretty much eat ANY THING edable : friut vegitable animal and mineral this gives me the widest array of vitamins and nutriants possably avalable (and I make it a point to try new things plant or animal) eating like this helped me go from about 135lb when i was around 18 or so to a solid 190lbs now thats 55lbs of muscle in 9 years
i realy dont think i could have made those type of gians if i were a vegan

but then again i dont know much about vegan diets i do know of a pro bb who is a vegatieran :BILL PERL he is old now but in his day he was a top compedator and beat out arnold before the advent of the olimpia contest

The way I see it:

Eat meat to make meat.

It's not scientifically correct at all, but I like meat.

[Redeem_Yourself]

a north indian veggie diet i amazing for vegetarian bodybuilders and athletes

look at this guy

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00vr4YE2ZpbLe/340x.jpg

http://www.petaindia.com/images/384-sushil-kumar.jpg

[Captain_America_]

Bill Pearl actually became a vegetarian after he beat Arnold, just an fyi, however, he was no slouch after he became one so that's somewhat of a moot point.

[RDFinders]

meat eaters always bash vegetarians and vegans. doing sports the veghead way is the same as someone going natural. it can be done. it can be done. it is about the spirit of the person more than anything. food plays a huge role in it, but when i ate meat, i never looked like i do now. my focus changed tremendously when i decided to compete. being a veghead had nothing to do with my determination. now doing things the veg way means being smarter when it comes to your nutrition. you cannot be a slouch with it or you will run into problems.

[marshjo]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so? you can get all the protein (and carbs if you choose to) minus all the fat and cholesterol. Vegeterian diet is easier to digest anyway. Raw vegeterian diet is even better. For example: Lentils and soybeans. Look up lentils: 600 cals per cup, 50 gms of protein. And dirt cheap. And mad healthy. How about eating a cup of lentils smootie with avocado and flavors every morning? Why is everyone hung on chicken, tuna and steak only?

prolly becaus most ppl, like me, like meat and dont want to eat just veggies.. i couldnt imagine not eating meat. the way i see it, we were made to eat meat, so y not enjoy it, just dont eat meat that comes from mcdonalds and eat it healthily! meat has high protein and red meat helps keep muscle. i think its a personal choice...

[Captain_America_]

The way I see it is vegetarian/vegan bodybuilding is far from impossible, in fact it is possible, but it's definitely going to add an extra challenge to something that is already challenging. Nothing is quite as anabolic as lean meats, so if you want to go about it the vegetarian way you're definitely going to have to discipline yourself a lot and make good use of those awesome chemistry skills you picked up in College.

[eddiebo]

The way I see it is vegetarian/vegan bodybuilding is far from impossible, in fact it is possible, but it's definitely going to add an extra challenge to something that is already challenging. Nothing is quite as anabolic as lean meats, so if you want to go about it the vegetarian way you're definitely going to have to discipline yourself a lot and make good use of those awesome chemistry skills you picked up in College.

That's a very, very high level look at vegetarian and vegan bodybuilding. I've been a vegetarian for a number of years having seen over a 60 pound increase in lean body mass in a little less than 2 years, I will say you are absolutely right, it is far from impossible. Though personally being in the trenches, if you will, it is much easier then you are making it out to be.

[RDFinders]

prolly becaus most ppl, like me, like meat and dont want to eat just veggies.. i couldnt imagine not eating meat. the way i see it, we were made to eat meat, so y not enjoy it, just dont eat meat that comes from mcdonalds and eat it healthily! meat has high protein and red meat helps keep muscle. i think its a personal choice...

there are so many analogs now, that you don't miss the texture. and why is that meateaters think vegetarians only eat vegetables? as if we just sit down to a plate of broccoli day in and day out.

[borlef]

You pretty much backed up what I said. Alot of those foods have less than 25% of their calories from protein. That's not high protein.

Beef, chicken, fish, cheese, eggs, pork, and other animal products have way more protein per 100 grams than that. Using vegan sources for protein just adds alot of carbs and fat which can make it very easy to overdo calories.

Even vegetarians can have whey, cheese, and eggs at times. Vegans are pretty much screwed unless they get their gemma protein as their main source. Nuts and legumes are not high in protein. They HAVE protein, but bodybuilding isn't about just eating protein, it's about eating alot of it.

How a vegan bodybuilder could get around 1.5 grams /lb in protein and not go way overboard on caloric requirements for mass is beyond me. It is true that you need calories to grow, but if you're getting alot of low protein foods you're gonna get too many calories beyond what is needed to build mass and you're just gonna add fat.

Post up a typical day's diet, show me the macro breakdown of protein, carbs, fats, total calories, and then I'll believe you.

Values based on 100 gram serving:

Beef, bottom sirloin, tri-tip roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, raw
-21 g protein

Chicken, broilers or fryers, back, meat only, raw
-20 g protein

Pork, fresh, leg (ham), shank half, separable lean only, raw
-21 g protein

Egg, whole, raw, fresh
-13 g protein

Fish, bass, striped, raw
-18 g protein

Cheese, monterey
-24 g protein

Don't listen to that guy, as proved above, he has no idea what he is talking about. And if you are eating 1.5 g of protein per lb of body weight you are a moron. You would be leaving so much urea acid in your body, stealing so much calcium to neutralize it.

[borlef]

The way I see it:

Eat meat to make meat.

It's not scientifically correct at all, but I like meat.

Definitely no science in that, considering the meat people eat doesn't eat meat

[ConanHC]

I see alot of people posting how many grams of protein are in this or that when it comes to vegan discussion.

The fact of the matter is that there are essential amino acids you cannot only find in legumes like lentils. Any vegan diet needs to have nuts mixed into it to work because only nuts and legumes combined will provide you with all the AA you need.

That, for me, is the hard part and why a vegan diet is hard when mixed with a bodybuilding life. Eating that many nuts, for me, is tough. Supplementation would make it a whole lot easier if I ever do decide to go vegan.

Aside from that though, it's a great cutting diet. you can feel energized and you sex drive goes way up. I know because I've done 3 weeks pure vegan: I ate only 4 things: vegetables, fruits, nuts and legumes. That was it and it worked beautifully for a cut. For mass ... not that much.

[borlef]

I see alot of people posting how many grams of protein are in this or that when it comes to vegan discussion.

The fact of the matter is that there are essential amino acids you cannot only find in legumes like lentils. Any vegan diet needs to have nuts mixed into it to work because only nuts and legumes combined will provide you with all the AA you need.

That, for me, is the hard part and why a vegan diet is hard when mixed with a bodybuilding life. Eating that many nuts, for me, is tough. Supplementation would make it a whole lot easier if I ever do decide to go vegan.

Aside from that though, it's a great cutting diet. you can feel energized and you sex drive goes way up. I know because I've done 3 weeks pure vegan: I ate only 4 things: vegetables, fruits, nuts and legumes. That was it and it worked beautifully for a cut. For mass ... not that much.

That's not true man, look up amino acid profiles here to see if they are complete or not.

http://www.bitterpoison.com/protein/

[ConanHC]

That's not true man, look up amino acid profiles here to see if they are complete or not.

http://www.bitterpoison.com/protein/

I learned it in my biology class in college. I always assume that what I learn in Science classes are true (I read alot of things posted on the Internet that I do NOT trust).

I've also read alot before doing the vegan diet to make sure that I was not going to end up in the hospital with some mineral or food deprivation.

All of what I read confirmed what I had learned in school.

[borlef]

I learned it in my biology class in college. I always assume that what I learn in Science classes are true (I read alot of things posted on the Internet that I do NOT trust).

I've also read alot before doing the vegan diet to make sure that I was not going to end up in the hospital with some mineral or food deprivation.

All of what I read confirmed what I had learned in school.


Well I majored in nutrition and I learned a lot of useful things in the material we were given throught textbooks, journals, etc but to be honest a lot of it was absolute junk and most of it is paid for by lobbies. Even Harvard's textbooks are carefully placed by the companies that donate money to the school. You really have to go independently researching to find out the whole truth. And as far as the amino acid thing goes, I just gave you a link that shows each amino acid of each food. There is no room for interpretation in that.

[RDFinders]

Well I majored in nutrition and I learned a lot of useful things in the material we were given throught textbooks, journals, etc but to be honest a lot of it was absolute junk and most of it is paid for by lobbies. Even Harvard's textbooks are carefully placed by the companies that donate money to the school. You really have to go independently researching to find out the whole truth. And as far as the amino acid thing goes, I just gave you a link that shows each amino acid of each food. There is no room for interpretation in that.

that is def for sure as a practicing dietitian of 8 years.

[anth342]

how can you not eat meat! i love meat

[Ramzy_]

I dont want to say that you should go completely vegan, but what wrong with doing so? Why does noone do so? you can get all the protein (and carbs if you choose to) minus all the fat and cholesterol. Vegeterian diet is easier to digest anyway. Raw vegeterian diet is even better. For example: Lentils and soybeans. Look up lentils: 600 cals per cup, 50 gms of protein. And dirt cheap. And mad healthy. How about eating a cup of lentils smootie with avocado and flavors every morning? Why is everyone hung on chicken, tuna and steak only?

Well... I think being a purely "vegetarian" is ... stupid (can't come up with a better word)... you might tell ME I'm narrow-minded but its the vegetarians who are restricting their view on only one set of foods. I know what you mean though where some bodybuilders (not sure if the majority) restrict most of their protein intake from meats... I, on the other hand, have a mixed diet (2 out of 5-6 meals per day have meat) and the others have lentils or beans, etc...also remember when you have a variety in your diet you can eat even more (good for bulking) because your taste buds grow some sort of tolerance to taste during one sitting (imagine you are at a buffet - due to the wide variety of foods, you can eat A LOT more than usual)... anyways, I may have gone off track... the message: eat everything!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

[grapemaster]

why I won't ever be vegetarian... can't digest wheat/dairy/beans/yeast(lactose/gluten intolerant)... all grains make me bloated(there goes the whole easy to digest thing). Personally I see no reason to be vegetarian over pure aesthetics, though I am against factory farming and mistreatment and don't eat pork. I actually see big ag and overpopulation as much bigger problems than eating meat as far as environment is concerned. I also don't eat "processed" foods so there goes all those stupid soy products which most have wheat gluten in it anyhow. Any diet you have to supplement or eat processed foods on just doesn't seem to go with nature (i.e. vegan (yet many want to make you think it is our natural human diet LOL, have fun with bone loss, muscle atrophy and anemia eating a natural vegan diet... ) I eat a mostly paleo diet with few hiccups. I think it is much better for the environment(if done right and local) and much healthier than vegetarian/vegan could ever dream of being.
Plus I'm a 6'3" 220 pound athlete... yeah try getting that protein with all the excluded foods, hmmm 200+g protein from egg whites and nuts?! OK sounds like a great diet dave man.
Also what many vegetarians and especially vegans conveniently fail to tell you is, vegan sources of protein are much less bioavailable, don't have creatine, carnosine, low in glutamine, arachadonic acid, cla, heme iron, or epa in it... they just mention b12.
And yes, I have tried eating like that for weeks at a time (I live in California now and my gf friends and family are all veg heads) ... feel like crap, bloated all the time, acne, low energy, poor performance in the gym are the side effects for me.
Most vegetarians I have seen have some deluded sense of values putting animals on the same level as humans (most aren't rational), they see humans as some ape creature who ate vegetables, do so for religious reasons, or believe in some false agenda like they are helping the environment (they aren't), following trends, eating disorders trying to be skinny...etc.

Long story short, don't let these agenda pushers tell you this diet is healthier or optimal, or that humans are natural vegetarians (LOL) though it could be cheaper on the pocket book and u can still live your normal life.

If you want to eat healthy optimal diet, eat some nice organic meats and eggs as part of your diet. If you want to help the environment, eat a local and unprocessed diet. Can all the other b.s. and quack science. Most of your nutrition gurus and serious bodybuilders already know this stuff... If it WAS optimal, don't you think they would be eating it??? Doh... They are in it for optimal health, optimal performance, optimal physique, neither of which a vegetarian or vegan diet provides.

[Epith]

It is possible. You'll just have to get your protein from a different source. Beans are a good source of protein. You can also buy protein shakes, powders and bars. Just a question though, do eggs count as a vegan food? it's chicken baby

[RDFinders]

It is possible. You'll just have to get your protein from a different source. Beans are a good source of protein. You can also buy protein shakes, powders and bars. Just a question though, do eggs count as a vegan food? it's chicken baby

not a vegan food. vegetarian, but not vegan.

[Shlokda]

Did you even READ his list? The majority of those sources had less than 25% of their calories from protein! That's weak!



That's not the reason I reject soy. It is true that the estrogen issue is blown way out of proportion and is misinterpreted. However, soy protein powders tend to have a 1:1 ratio of carbs to protein whereas whey powders have an almost 0:1 ratio of carbs (and fat) to protein. Some powders are actually 100% protein, which is basically the ideal. It's not a high protein product if it is isocalorically matched with carbs and fats. I just saw some GeniSoy and Spirutein products that had more carbs than they did protein! Come on!

Not to mention that soy protein powders are more expensive than whey powders. Whey is about the cheapest source of protein (and most concentrated) while soy is not high in protein and is much more expensive. What would you rather take?

Here's an example. A whey pwoder (ON Whey Gold Standard) has about 28 servings. It costs 12.99. Compare that to a Soy Powder (GeniSoy) that costs 14.99 and has 15 servings. Oh, not to mention that the Whey has 23 grams of protein per serving (and is 120 calories), while the Soy has a mere 14 grams per serving and is 140 calories. More calories, way less protein, and about twice the cost.



Beans have a 2:1 carbs to protein ratio. 6 grams of protein (rather weak) in a 1/2 cup but you also get 12 grams of carbs along with that. Beans are also like $2 a can, with about 2-3 servings that provide only 6 grams of protein. Again, beans as a protein source isn't a good idea. Don't get me wrong, I eat beans. Alot. But I use them as a carb source. I'm not saying I don't count the protein in them, but if they were a main protein source, I'd come up short. Unless I ate no other carbs except beans. Then I could theoretically have a good diet with 2 grams of carbs for every gram of protein, but that is way too many beans in one day and too much cooking (and spending).



Per serving is only 3 grams of protein and 60 calories. Not exactly high protein. It's more of a fat source than a protein source.

That's why I see veggie bbing as a problem, because alot of them use fat/carb sources as protein sources and come up short on protein or meet their protein needs but strongly overdo their calories (or they end up consuming alot of protein powder that makes for a very boring diet that I would get sick of).



Well, aside from the lower cost, the higher concentration of protein, meat and dairy also have better amino acid profiles than veggie sources.

Let's see, what would I rather do: spend alot of money, or drink alot of powder, get fat by strongly overdoing my calories to meet protein requirements from weak sources, and not even have a complete protein breakdown,

or would I rather just save money, save calories, have a less boring diet, not get fat, and have a complete protein breakdown?

Meat it is.



Sounds like a huge hassle to me. I'd rather eat a big ole steak than try and find cereal. More protein, cheaper, and tastier.



Americans focus alot on protein? :eek:

Americans don't focus on carbs? :eek:

Show me a typical Western diet and I'll show you a diet that is high in carbs and low in protein. I thought this was known by everyone?

Where did Bruce Lee write this, anyway? Furthermore, who cares? Bruce Lee did way more physical activity than you and I so he of course needed way more carbs. Not only that, but Bruce Lee wasn't a bodybuilder so anything he said regarding a bodybuilder's goals is irrelevant. If you want to look like Bruce Lee, fine. Most here do not.

Not only that, but protein doesn't harm any BODY that is already healthy. The thing about kidneys only affects those with a pre-existing condition. The thing about osteoporosis is only relevant to those with poor calcium intake. With a diet high in essential micronutrients, a bodybuilder actually does GOOD by overeating protein.



Because overeating protein can put you in the ER/turn you into a gigantic monster, correct? :rolleyes:



Protein isn't a steroid.

Eating alot of protein will not make you look like you take steroids. Taking steroids will make you look like that. Who would have known? :rolleyes:

Bodybuilders don't overeat protein because they think it will make them grow extra muscle, but because bodybuilders NEED extra protein because weightlifting breaks down muscle tissue so we NEED to repair it. The extra protein is eaten to help the body recover, not because we think it will make us grow huge 20 inch biceps. Have you even researched anything about nutrition?



I can definitely knock the vegi lifestyle because research backs me up.

That said, I actually lived the majority of my life as a vegetarian and I was weak and skinny-fat.

Is it possible to get enough protein/right quality as a vegetarian? Yes. But it's also not cost-effective or ideal when trying to count calories.

Served, ez.

[Al Shades]

they are plenty of vegetarian bodybuilders, and even vegan bodybuilders out there, you just need to search.

but because a lot of vegan protein sources are also high in carbs, it makes it hard to burn bodyfat during a cut, and stay lean overall without doing tons of cardio. that's why most bb's rely on pure protein sources such as meat and eggs, they are more concentrated sources of protein.

I am vegetarian and find myself gaining just as much muscle as any meat-eater. I was also vegan, and raw foodist, and although they are very healthy ways of eating I found it hard to maintain low levels of bodyfat because of the carbs. Maybe because I am just carb sensitive, dunno, but I decided to incorporate some dairy into my diet and am doing much better.

You're implying that carbs make people fat by your post, which happens to be...absolutely correct.

Yet it is a point that many bodybuilders are still loathe to admit.

[luckydragonherb]

Maybe the problem is not the protein content of vegan food, but the thought that one must get 300 grams of it per day to put on muscle.

[Murdok1741]

Nice bump. Regardless, thought I'd share a recent post of mine from my blog: http://fitandprofessional.com/vegetarians-can-get-beefy-too/

Building mass while on a vegetarian diet is going to be a bit more difficult, primarily from the standpoint of protein quality and how protein synthesis is triggered. However, this is not to say it can't be done and without a doubt, there are ways around it and ways to achieve success doing so.