British Persons, please tell me this is a distortion!

[eomrat]

Britain Takes Up Islamic Law

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,422661,00.html

Have you all gone insane? No offense intended, but WTF?

[dbx]

Almost all of Europe is on a slippery slope. Very slippery. And it will come back to bite them in the ass.

However, this thread will probably go to hell quickly and be locked :).

[eomrat]

However, this thread will probably go to hell quickly and be locked :).

You are probably right, although there is no reason for it. Would it help to deflect some of the potentialy infammatory responses to make note of the fact that there is no such thing as "Islamic Law" and that the legal system in question is "Sharia Law" and that it is not widely practiced by governments in the Islamic world?

Nah.. probably not.

[maryinmesquite]

You are probably right, although there is no reason for it. Would it help to deflect some of the potentialy infammatory responses to make note of the fact that there is no such thing as "Islamic Law" and that the legal system in question is "Sharia Law" and that it is not widely practiced by governments in the Islamic world?

Nah.. probably not.just like the article said you have two sets of laws . which applies , i thought the purpose of a democracy was we vote stuff in and then all abide by it ,

[kimsquit]

Britain Takes Up Islamic Law

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,422661,00.html

Have you all gone insane? No offense intended, but WTF?


you might be surprised to discover how close it came to happening in your own backyard (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/09/09/sharia-protests-20050909.html) in 2005...



to quote Sir Winston Churchill: "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."

[Karl_Hungus]

Have you all gone insane? No offense intended, but WTF?

Quoted for truth. I wonder what kind of "justice" is going to be meted out in these sorts of "courts".

[Capnwilliam]

Almost all of Europe is on a slippery slope. Very slippery. And it will come back to bite them in the ass

Things are different in the US?

Jim

[kimsquit]

Quoted for truth. I wonder what kind of "justice" is going to be meted out in these sorts of "courts".

5UCY0iHpgHw

[eomrat]

Baby Repped for the Sabbath link.


I have seen Sharia "Justice" meted out to a female with my own eyes. The thought that any civilized society would consider it in Civil cases is mind blowing enough, but the suggestion that it would apply in Domestic Violence cases is revolting. There has to be more ( or hopefully less ) to this than is in the article.

[dbx]

Things are different in the US?

Well, yes, they are. But I hear you. It might be ironic that our history of slavery and segregation might actually be the saving argument for not supporting two different types of judicial processes. It's bad enough that the amount of money you have in your bank account can make the difference in our current court system, but we don't need openly sanctioned differences. Of course, this is why Fed court appointees are more important than people think.

[Reality_Check]

Almost all of Europe is on a slippery slope. Very slippery. And it will come back to bite them in the ass.

However, this thread will probably go to hell quickly and be locked :).

As I see it unless things change, in a century or two (maybe just half a century) it is not implausible that the majority of the European continent will be populated by people in favour of sharia law.

For whatever reason religious people (who take their faith seriously) tend to breed more prolifically than secular people.

In any case the women in Europe and the west in general (though the US is not so bad) and even Russia are not breading at replacement rate (which is about 2.1 children per woman apparently).

The Europeans are protecting themselves from this population crash (i.e. crash in the tax base) by importing labour from North Africa among other countries, people who for the most part are of the Islamic faith.

Assuming they can keep up their 3rd world birth rates (some people question if they will) in time their descendants will come to make up the majority of the population. Once the majority of the population think that sharia law is a great idea, in a democracy, that's what will become law.

As I see it European culture is committing suicide simply because the women are refusing to breed (or unable to). Who knows why?

Are there more European women just not able to find husbands, and preferring not to raise kids alone, tending not to have kids? (Men on a marriage strike thanks to PC)? Or are the western women simply not having kids because thanks to political correctness they think its beneath them? Or are the western women thanks to PC putting career first and then putting off kids till their late 30s, when a substantial number are no longer as fertile.

Or maybe it's got nothing to do with PC and we're just a bunch of lazy selfish bastards (thanks to living in a high tech, affluent, materialistic society) and we prefer to put our money into our own entertainment rather than raise a bunch of ungrateful brats?

Whatever the reason if the people who like sharia law have lots of kids and the people who don't like sharia law have few, and that does seem to be the way things are, then sharia law is what will eventually reign in Europe.

Another way to look at this is that dysfunctional societies tend to die (albeit they leave a lot of pain and suffering in their wake before they do).

Not being prepared to breed is dysfunctional (from an evolutionary biological point of view), being prepared to breed is functional. Whatever the happiness or lack of it or ill health of individual women in that high reproductive rate culture, that society will dominate that is reproductively functional.

For example Communism was dysfunctional and so it eventually died in Russia (and in all but name in China), a lot of individuals died/were tortured/imprisoned though before that dysfunctional society came to its inevitable end.

Similarly western culture that doesn't want to breed (perhaps due to PCness) will also fade away, not because its adherents give it up but because they don't leave descendants because it's not functional (reproduction wise).

Europe is on track to be conquered by the womb not the sword (though the sword may well come into play later in the piece).

[biggaz]

Britain Takes Up Islamic Law

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,422661,00.html

Have you all gone insane? No offense intended, but WTF?

First I've heard about this !!! It hasn't been that widely reported for some reason.

[Stevelegh]

You all do realise that the United Kingdon is no longer a sovereign nation don't you?

We answer to Brussels.

European Law supercedes British Law and European Law demands equal rights for all.

The rabbit hole is far deeper my friends..........

[dbx]

You all do realise that the United Kingdon is no longer a sovereign nation don't you?

We answer to Brussels.

European Law supercedes British Law and European Law demands equal rights for all.

The rabbit hole is far deeper my friends..........

But you still don't use the Euro :p

[Stevelegh]

But you still don't use the Euro :p

The fact that our politicians promised us a referendum on the Euro hasn't stopped them from giving our gold reserves to Europe, and they know that it's only going to take the 'right' economic conditions to get us on board.

If joining the Euro meant $100 off the average mortgage, we'll be ticking the 'YES' box in droves. It's only time...

But back to the Sharia thing: I don't have a problem with this. We lost our identity as a 'Christian' nation years ago and if our laws do not cover a percentage of our population and as long as 'British Law' (Europe aside) is not superceded or compromised and is considered 'absolute' (Again, Europe aside haha, what a joke!) then if they want to settle their 'goat haggling' disputes in their own courts, then fine. That's all they want to do, conduct their financial and domestic matters in their own courts

It will be a problem if they start plugging adulterous wives in the head with a .45 at public executions..........

[rpaul11]

You all do realise that the United Kingdon is no longer a sovereign nation don't you?

We answer to Brussels.

European Law supercedes British Law and European Law demands equal rights for all.

The rabbit hole is far deeper my friends..........

FOrgive my ignorance...but doesn't equal rights for all mean the same rules/laws for all?

[Stevelegh]

FOrgive my ignorance...but doesn't equal rights for all mean the same rules/laws for all?


Yes, you're right and I didn't explain myself very well at all.

When I say equal rights in this context, I mean that if they say they want there own laws in line with their religion, we have to respect that.

There are soo many British laws being overturned in the European courts, it's not even funny.

One example is on the age of consent. The age of consent in the UK is 16 for heterosexuals. It used to be 18 for homosexuals. Europe forced us to change the law. Personally with our poor record of teenage pregnancies, it would have made a strong moral comment to raise the hetro age to 18, but nonetheless, things have to be equal.

We're just beyond it all now. The Sharia thing is no real biggy for us. Even if there was outrage, all they'd do is call the courts Islamic Resolution Centres or something and no one would bat an eyelid.

This'll give you food for thought:

It is legal for a 50 year old man to take a 16 year old boy into a public toilet, put his penis through a 'glory hole' and get a blowjob from the 16 year old as long as both toilet doors are locked.

However, it is illegal for a married couple to make love in their own home if they can be seen from outside.

I know it's an extreme example and arguably out of context to the OP, but it does give an example of how completely insane things have got here.......

[dbx]

Yes, you're right and I didn't explain myself very well at all.

Don't worry, Rpaul11 is on the same wavelength this morning :D (inside joke Steve)

[rpaul11]

Yes, you're right and I didn't explain myself very well at all.

When I say equal rights in this context, I mean that if they say they want there own laws in line with their religion, we have to respect that.

.....

That's my point Steve :) My religion belives abortion is killing. An atheiest's religion does not. (yes....this is oversimplifying) So....the atheiest can have an abortion but my wife can not in the courts if what you are saying is so.

another absurd example...religion "x" belives that people whom do not belive in their god should be eliminated. Therefore they can walk the streets killing people based off of religious beliefs. There is no equality here.

[eomrat]

then if they want to settle their 'goat haggling' disputes in their own courts, then fine. That's all they want to do, conduct their financial and domestic matters in their own courts

It will be a problem if they start plugging adulterous wives in the head with a .45 at public executions..........

If they want to settle their own financial and domestic matters in their own way, in accordance with their own traditions, thats fine. But, you don't need a court for that. Once you have a court handing down judgements contrary to British law or tradition then you open up a Pandora's box of possibilities. The Muslims don't live in total isolation over their do they? How will it be decided which court to use in the event of a financial dispute between a Muslim and a Non-Muslin?

Reality Check makes some great points about population growths of different cultures and its impact on a democracy. In the case of Britain, however, the Muslims do not nearly make a majority. So why are they preempting the possible with this? That, to me, is decidedly Un-British. Giving in or giving up or whatever, is a character trait that I usually associate with a certain nation across the channel. Here's a quote that I always thought summed up the British character:

"Of course, the British are beaten. They are just to G.. D... British to admit it"
-Gen Mark Clark. 1941

Maybe I have a romantic ideal of the British. I fully admit that the sum total of my first hand knowledge of that people was obtained during four days of drunken Pub crawling in London and many long nights of drinking with the Para's in Germany. However, I always thought of that Island as a bulwark against European silliness. I didn't even realize that the Brits consider themselves European.

As to Sharia law, I spent 40 months of my life in Muslim countries (Never as an invited guest) and I can accept most of their cultural differences. But, the one thing I cannot stomach is how they treat their women. If we even consider allowing such garbage to be codified in law, then we are just as guilty as they are.

Rant Off

[kimsquit]

But back to the Sharia thing: I don't have a problem with this. We lost our identity as a 'Christian' nation years ago and if our laws do not cover a percentage of our population and as long as 'British Law' (Europe aside) is not superceded or compromised and is considered 'absolute' (Again, Europe aside haha, what a joke!) then if they want to settle their 'goat haggling' disputes in their own courts, then fine. That's all they want to do, conduct their financial and domestic matters in their own courts

It will be a problem when they start plugging adulterous wives in the head with a .45 at public executions..........*fixed for historical continuity* ;)

Steve, have you ever heard of a situation where a special interest group was given societal concessions and then never went on to demand more?

[Stevelegh]

If they want to settle their own financial and domestic matters in their own way, in accordance with their own traditions, thats fine. But, you don't need a court for that. Once you have a court handing down judgements contrary to British law or tradition then you open up a Pandora's box of possibilities. The Muslims don't live in total isolation over their do they? How will it be decided which court to use in the event of a financial dispute between a Muslim and a Non-Muslin?

One would assume that British law will be supreme?????


Reality Check makes some great points about population growths of different cultures and its impact on a democracy. In the case of Britain, however, the Muslims do not nearly make a majority. So why are they preempting the possible with this? That, to me, is decidedly Un-British. Giving in or giving up or whatever, is a character trait that I usually associate with a certain nation across the channel. Here's a quote that I always thought summed up the British character:

"Of course, the British are beaten. They are just to G.. D... British to admit it"
-Gen Mark Clark. 1941

Maybe I have a romantic ideal of the British. I fully admit that the sum total of my first hand knowledge of that people was obtained during four days of drunken Pub crawling in London and many long nights of drinking with the Para's in Germany. However, I always thought of that Island as a bulwark against European silliness. I didn't even realize that the Brits consider themselves European.

Yes, we are beaten down. To be English has been viewed as something to be ashamed of and until recently, and to claim that distinction as opposed to being 'British' was considered tantamount to xenophobia. The problem is that the government wants all to be happy Europeans. We don't. Really. People are driving around with bumper stickers saying 'Love Europe - Hate The EU'.

Our government has in the last 40 years, passed stupid laws, surrendered power and wealth to unelected burocrats in Brussels and there is f**k all we can do about it. It's a bit like the step dad coming in and telling the mother to beat the child. We are one of lesser loved of the 'European children' and we take the most beatings whilst contributing more than most the the household that is the EU.

Lennon once said that if you give the people enough money for beer and f a g s, they won't ask questions.

People wonder why the English have a binge drinking problem? I'd argue that the government prefers it. We don't ask too many questions....

Sorry, I ranted, didn't I?........

[Stevelegh]

*fixed for historical continuity* ;)

Steve, have you ever heard of a situation where a special interest group was given societal concessions and then never went on to demand more?

Yes I have and yes they will, but you don't understand, they will do it anyway, but they'll 'rebadge' it if they think we're not going to put up with it.

Here is the question posed to the British public during the 1975 referendum on EU membership:

'Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?'

Reference: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm

The agreement was to enjoy a 'common market', not political and economic union.

They lie like this all the time, twist the questions or make the question 'ambiguous'.

The European Union was not evolved then, but the people in power knew what they were going to do and the British Public were suckered into joining something they didn't know existed or was ever going to exist.

All we wanted was imports and exports without paying duty and taxes. We got thrown into a Union of unelected..........

(I won't say it...)

[eomrat]

I had no idea that EU law could overturn English law. That actually makes me a little sick.
So whats the deal? If you don't bend over and embrace every culture, no matter how foreign, and change all your laws and traditions to please every group on the planet you might as well join the NF?

Good Luck with that.

[Stevelegh]

I had no idea that EU law could overturn English law. That actually makes me a little sick.
So whats the deal? If you don't bend over and embrace every culture, no matter how foreign, and change all your laws and traditions to please every group on the planet you might as well join the NF?

Good Luck with that.

First EU law overruling UK law

Here you go: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:IeNrLZx1Er4J:www.citized.info/pdf/commarticles/Oxford_Legal.doc+eu+rulings+overturn+english+law&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

Next, Human Rights:

Here's one of the country's leading EU law and human rights lawyers:

http://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/WhoWeAre_Members_CherieBoothQC.aspx

You may recognise her.

You do?

Don't you think there's been a slight conflict of interest for this country over the last 11 years?

As I said, they do what the f**k they like with us.....

[kimsquit]

Lennon once said that if you give the people enough money for beer and f a g s, they won't ask questions. I think the other Lenin said it too ;)

[eomrat]

"While the UK remains a member of the EU, EU law takes precedence over national law. This means that the UK Parliament is no longer the supreme law-maker and, for the time being at least, it has limited its sovereignty"

Was the above quote actually lifted from a Civics course taught in English Schools?

It is beyong belief that the same island that produced Nelson, Wellington, Kitchner, Churchill, not to mention the RAF, and a million others sold out their sovereignty to Europe. When you think of how many Englishmen died to protect that Island through the years, it is just sickening.

I consider whoever was responsible for doing what Napoleon, Phillip, and Hitler
couldn't do nothing more than a traitor.

[jawter]

As I see it unless things change, in a century or two (maybe just half a century) it is not implausible that the majority of the European continent will be populated by people in favour of sharia law.
~~~~~~~
Similarly western culture that doesn't want to breed (perhaps due to PCness) will also fade away, not because its adherents give it up but because they don't leave descendants because it's not functional (reproduction wise).

Europe is on track to be conquered by the womb not the sword (though the sword may well come into play later in the piece).


First let me say........In before the lock....



There is some merit to what you say, just look at how the west coast of the US has changed over the past 30 years as the hispanic population has increased.


The report also finds that the national birth rate for women age 15 to 50 receiving public assistance in 2006 was about three times of those not receiving public assistance. A decade after the passage of welfare reform in 1996, data show that women in this age range receiving public assistance had a birth rate of 155 births per 1,000 women, compared with 53 births per 1,000 women not receiving it.http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/012510.html


Some interesting numbers about breeders in the U.S.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/fertility.html

[Mindi912]

First I've heard about this !!! It hasn't been that widely reported for some reason.

That's what I was just about to say...

It's been mentioned but nothing is for definite and I don't see it happening just like that either!

[jawter]

"While the UK remains a member of the EU, EU law takes precedence over national law. This means that the UK Parliament is no longer the supreme law-maker and, for the time being at least, it has limited its sovereignty"

Was the above quote actually lifted from a Civics course taught in English Schools?

It is beyong belief that the same island that produced Nelson, Wellington, Kitchner, Churchill, not to mention the RAF, and a million others sold out their sovereignty to Europe. When you think of how many Englishmen died to protect that Island through the years, it is just sickening.

I consider whoever was responsible for doing what Napoleon, Phillip, and Hitler
couldn't do nothing more than a traitor.


oemrat, we are seeing what happens when a bunch of liberals get to stay in office for too long. This is our future as well if we keep going like we are and erroding away the Constitution. :(

[kimsquit]

As I see it European culture is committing suicide simply because the women are refusing to breed (or unable to). Who knows why?

Are there more European women just not able to find husbands, and preferring not to raise kids alone, tending not to have kids? (Men on a marriage strike thanks to PC)? Or are the western women simply not having kids because thanks to political correctness they think its beneath them? Or are the western women thanks to PC putting career first and then putting off kids till their late 30s, when a substantial number are no longer as fertile.

Or maybe it's got nothing to do with PC and we're just a bunch of lazy selfish bastards (thanks to living in a high tech, affluent, materialistic society) and we prefer to put our money into our own entertainment rather than raise a bunch of ungrateful brats?


C1sE1E3z7jU

[Stevelegh]

It is beyong belief that the same island that produced Nelson, Wellington, Kitchner, Churchill, not to mention the RAF, and a million others sold out their sovereignty to Europe. When you think of how many Englishmen died to protect that Island through the years, it is just sickening.

I consider whoever was responsible for doing what Napoleon, Phillip, and Hitler
couldn't do nothing more than a traitor.

YES! But it's our own countrymen! The very people we elect to look after our interests.

Haven't you heard about the European Constitution? Every country has rejected it that has the power to do so by national referendum. So what do they do? Rebadge it! It's now called The Lisbon Treaty.

http://www.iwantareferendum.com/case.aspx

I feel bad that I've derailed this thread, but as you can see, Sharia law being passed in the UK, isn't a big problem. We have far larger and more sinister issues at hand.

[jawter]

YES! But it's our own countrymen! The very people we elect to look after our interests.

Haven't you heard about the European Constitution? Every country has rejected it that has the power to do so by national referendum. So what do they do? Rebadge it! It's now called The Lisbon Treaty.

http://www.iwantareferendum.com/case.aspx

I feel bad that I've derailed this thread, but as you can see, Sharia law being passed in the UK, isn't a big problem. We have far larger and more sinister issues at hand.

I don't see it as derailed it's a part of the whole picture of how liberal leadership is destroying GB and Europe.

[eomrat]

oemrat, we are seeing what happens when a bunch of liberals get to stay in office for too long. This is our future as well if we keep going like we are and erroding away the Constitution. :(

I believe we would fight. I hope we would. I, and I believe you as well, swore an oath to defend the Constitution. and while different people try to interpret that document different ways, there really is no room for confusion on this one. Hmm..doesnt England have very strict gun control laws? So, thats what happens when you disarm the people?

Do the Brits have a Supreme Court like ours?

[RedMaster]

just like the article said you have two sets of laws . which applies , i thought the purpose of a democracy was we vote stuff in and then all abide by it ,

We don't live in a Democracy we live in a Republic although I will admit it is quickly becoming a Democracy.

[eomrat]

I don't see it as derailed it's a part of the whole picture of how liberal leadership is destroying GB and Europe.

agreed. Not derailed. We are talking about 2 symptoms of the same disease

[Reality_Check]

C1sE1E3z7jU

lol, Classic. Disturbingly true from my observations.

[Stevelegh]

I believe we would fight. I hope we would. I, and I believe you as well, swore an oath to defend the Constitution. and while different people try to interpret that document different ways, there really is no room for confusion on this one. Hmm..doesnt England have very strict gun control laws? So, thats what happens when you disarm the people?

Do the Brits have a Supreme Court like ours?

We can't fight them. They'd just barricade themselves in and do what they liked anyway. See below. This is a Cabinet Minister visiting her own constituency:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_01/harmanDM3103_468x529.jpg

Nice stab vest!

The government pledged to ban foxhunting to appease the wooly jumpered liberal pansies. This had a massive impact on country life with livelihoods being threatened. there was a march on Westminister, the largest protest since the Peasants Revolt in 1381 (yes, that was the year....)

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/22/uk.country/

Did the government listen?

Nope.

I could go on all day....

(in fact, I have and I'm now on my second day!)

[Guinness42]

I don't see it as derailed it's a part of the whole picture of how liberal leadership is destroying GB and Europe.

And is working hard at doing so in the US at the moment :mad:

[snoack]

The fact that our politicians promised us a referendum on the Euro hasn't stopped them from giving our gold reserves to Europe, and they know that it's only going to take the 'right' economic conditions to get us on board.

If joining the Euro meant $100 off the average mortgage, we'll be ticking the 'YES' box in droves. It's only time...

But back to the Sharia thing: I don't have a problem with this. We lost our identity as a 'Christian' nation years ago and if our laws do not cover a percentage of our population and as long as 'British Law' (Europe aside) is not superceded or compromised and is considered 'absolute' (Again, Europe aside haha, what a joke!) then if they want to settle their 'goat haggling' disputes in their own courts, then fine. That's all they want to do, conduct their financial and domestic matters in their own courts

It will be a problem if they start plugging adulterous wives in the head with a .45 at public executions..........

Well, my question and concern would be this:

in the case of a dispute between a Muslim and an infidel, which legal guidelines are pursued?

These people are colonizers. They have no intent to become part of your society. They're able to do through breeding what they weren't able to do militarily.

[alec_braithwait]

I had no idea that EU law could overturn English law. That actually makes me a little sick.
So whats the deal? If you don't bend over and embrace every culture, no matter how foreign, and change all your laws and traditions to please every group on the planet you might as well join the NF?

Good Luck with that.

Even though I live in Seattle I am English (I even have a Union Jack flag on the roof of my mini cooper)

After spending 6 years in the USA, I see the way Europe works is very similar to the USA

Each country within Europe can be considered a state, and the EU courts are similar to the federal courts.

You will find that each country is able to govern itself with an eye on the overall equality and civil rights that have been agreed at a European wide level (amongst lots of other things).

Therefore, if you take someone to court for any reason, say a human rights case. You can eventually take your appeals through the British court system eventually reaching the House of Lords which is considered the highest court in the country. However, now, if you are not happy with the verdict you have a chance to take your case and appeal to the European courts which often have a very different view on things to Britain.

This may be an over simplification so please don't blow holes in this, i am just trying to draw similarities.

A lot of British people do not consider themselves European, we will always be British, there's a thin blue line called the English Channel which I am very happy to say will always keep us just a little separated from the mainland.