Training frequency for naturals

[liftjunkie06]

When you guys are in contest mode, how do you handle training frequency as it is related to HIIT? I know you?re supposed to stay with what you?ve been doing in the off season for building muscle, but that changes from time to time anyway. HIIT is pretty much a lower body workout, and affects the CNS similarly to weight training, I believe. So, if one were used to doing a push/pull split routine with each routine performed twice/week, and they want to incorporate HIIT about 3 times/week, how do you address the lower body overtraining issue while on a reduced caloric intake?

[liftjunkie06]

Also, assume one is consuming carbs. And BCAA's are consumed during all physical activity.

[Sporto1633]

When you guys are in contest mode, how do you handle training frequency as it is related to HIIT? I know you?re supposed to stay with what you?ve been doing in the off season for building muscle, but that changes from time to time anyway. HIIT is pretty much a lower body workout, and affects the CNS similarly to weight training, I believe. So, if one were used to doing a push/pull split routine with each routine performed twice/week, and they want to incorporate HIIT about 3 times/week, how do you address the lower body overtraining issue while on a reduced caloric intake?

Simple, you adjust the overall leg volume of your workouts to compensate. If frequency and intensity are a constant, then volume is the variable you adjust to keep everything in balance.

Sporto

[AustrianOakJr]

Simple, you adjust the overall leg volume of your workouts to compensate. If frequency and intensity are a constant, then volume is the variable you adjust to keep everything in balance.

Sporto

So, less sets on leg day, eh? Hmmm. I have been just chugging along.....adding in the extra HIIT. But, youre right. That might not be the best thing in the world to do.

[liftjunkie06]

Simple, you adjust the overall leg volume of your workouts to compensate. If frequency and intensity are a constant, then volume is the variable you adjust to keep everything in balance.

Sporto

I did consider that. So, with the push/pull, you would basically be doing each leg muscle twice a week. Add HIIT and it gets up there. I know that doing it on leg days (which is every lifting day in this case) is better for recovery. So, assume one is only doing about 4 sets/day for each muscle group. Is this too much with the addition of 2-3 HIIT session per week.

Thanks for the good replies guys. I've got reps for you (of course) on recharge.

[Sporto1633]

So, less sets on leg day, eh? Hmmm. I have been just chugging along.....adding in the extra HIIT. But, youre right. That might not be the best thing in the world to do.

In my opinion, when you first add in HIIT, you might be able to get away with the same volume for a little while - I know I did during my prep. But, there wil come a time as you get leaner and calories start to drop that you will start overreaching (which will turn into overtraining) if you don't adjust something. Instead of sacrificing intensity or frequency, I would suggest lowering the total volume (work sets) for legs during the week. That will help maintain balance.


I did consider that. So, with the push/pull, you would basically be doing each leg muscle twice a week. Add HIIT and it gets up there. I know that doing it on leg days (which is every lifting day in this case) is better for recovery. So, assume one is only doing about 4 sets/day for each muscle group. Is this too much with the addition of 2-3 HIIT session per week.

Thanks for the good replies guys. I've got reps for you (of course) on recharge.

I'm not talking about lowering volume of every muscle group...just what you would normally do for legs. Let's say for instance that you are going to start your contest prep and continue on the same lifting split you are currently doing. First off, I wouldn't just start at 3Xweek of HIIT, I would start at 1 and slowly add as needed. Second, like I said above, you will probably be able to do everything just fine for a little while in the beginning and not need an adjustment - just listen to your body and go by feel and intuition. If legs are getting beat up and strength is going down in your main exercises like squats, etc...then I would adjust the total number of sets you are doing for the week. So, if you are doing 6 sets for legs twice a week, you might drop it to 4 sets twice a week and continue the HIIT...something like that...

Sporto

[liftjunkie06]

Great, thank Tommy. But, I'm not sure I'm a genetic freak like yourself, but thanks for the compliment. I'll likely have to reduce the overall volume as I've been doing 1-2 HIIT session but may need 1 more. I guess raquetball i'm not sure where raquetball falls.

Anyway, great advice there and thanks. Good luck on your upcoming shows. My body will tell me what I'll have to adjust.

[AustrianOakJr]

Would the main sign of overtraining be the loss of strength? Or are there others I should be watching for?

Also, for those that only do 1-2 HIIT sessions per week......are you doing regular low intensity cardio (jogging) as well? I am 6 weeks out and doing HIIT 4-5 times a week. 25 min sessions. Too much? MY weight is dropping nicely.....but I dont want to be sacrificing muscle....especially leg muscle (mine are weak). I have about 10 lbs of fat left to lose....give or take a couple.

[Sporto1633]

Great, thank Tommy. But, I'm not sure I'm a genetic freak like yourself, but thanks for the compliment. I'll likely have to reduce the overall volume as I've been doing 1-2 HIIT session but may need 1 more. I guess raquetball i'm not sure where raquetball falls.

Anyway, great advice there and thanks. Good luck on your upcoming shows. My body will tell me what I'll have to adjust.

I wasn't aware you were already in contest prep mode and already doing HIIT twice a week. In my opinion, if you are going to add a 3rd day, keep a close eye on total leg volume and intensity. I would still fight like hell to maintain high intensity and lower volume...

Racquetball is tough to gauge, but it is high intensity if you are really busting it. No matter what form of cardio you are doing, what determines where it falls is how high your heart rate gets. If you are busting ass on the court and heart rate is really high, that would be high intensity. The interval part of HIIT is just another avenue to get the overall result of a high heart rate. So whatever form you use, use that as your gauge.


Would the main sign of overtraining be the loss of strength? Or are there others I should be watching for?

That's really the main and most obvious thing we can monitor to determine overreaching/overtraining. But psychological burnout (which can be tough to distinguish from, say, low carb zombieness) can be another one. Not being able to recover for next workout, etc...all good things to monitor.


Also, for those that only do 1-2 HIIT sessions per week......are you doing regular low intensity cardio (jogging) as well? I am 6 weeks out and doing HIIT 4-5 times a week. 25 min sessions. Too much? MY weight is dropping nicely.....but I dont want to be sacrificing muscle....especially leg muscle (mine are weak). I have about 10 lbs of fat left to lose....give or take a couple.

Most probably are doing both. The sessions start out light in the beginning and sessions are added along prep depending on body response and progress. Cardio, both forms, should be used as tools with diet being the primary cause of BF loss...

Sporto

[devo09]

tommy did you ever do your HIIT cardio on your leg day? It seems crazy but lyle macdonald reccommends it because then there are more days of complete rest for legs.

[Sporto1633]

tommy did you ever do your HIIT cardio on your leg day? It seems crazy but lyle macdonald reccommends it because then there are more days of complete rest for legs.

I started doing HIIT on non-weight training days (I had 2 of those a week), when I added in sessions (I was doing 4 total towards the end), they were on leg days in the PM (lifted in the AM), but remember, volume comes down to compensate...so it's really not as bad as you might think at all. It WOULD be really bad if you kept trying to do the same leg workout AND do a HIT cardio session, but if you are smart with how you go about it...it will work great.

Sporto

[AustrianOakJr]

That's really the main and most obvious thing we can monitor to determine overreaching/overtraining. But psychological burnout (which can be tough to distinguish from, say, low carb zombieness) can be another one. Not being able to recover for next workout, etc...all good things to monitor.

Today was real bad for mood and "zombieness" as you put it, but my carbs were pretty low. I did HIIT on the bike this morning, had a 1/2 cup of oats afterward and then kept carbs real low for the rest of the day. Felt like total crap until about a 1/2 hour ago when I took in about 25 grams of carbs with my 2nd to last meal. So, I would attribute my mental issues with the lack of carbs. That said

That said, if my strength in squats remains constant (maybe a slight drop due to lack of carbs), you think its OK staying with 4 HIIT sessions @ 6 weeks out?



Most probably are doing both. The sessions start out light in the beginning and sessions are added along prep depending on body response and progress. Cardio, both forms, should be used as tools with diet being the primary cause of BF loss...

Sporto

I do often do LIT cardio, but mostly in the afternoons on my non-lift days. This means HIIT cardio in the morning and LIT cardio PM. Couple this with only 80-100 grams of carbs and im a real jerk to be around! Its only a couple days a week though.

Thanks for your advice.

[Sporto1633]

Today was real bad for mood and "zombieness" as you put it, but my carbs were pretty low. I did HIIT on the bike this morning, had a 1/2 cup of oats afterward and then kept carbs real low for the rest of the day. Felt like total crap until about a 1/2 hour ago when I took in about 25 grams of carbs with my 2nd to last meal. So, I would attribute my mental issues with the lack of carbs. That said

That said, if my strength in squats remains constant (maybe a slight drop due to lack of carbs), you think its OK staying with 4 HIIT sessions @ 6 weeks out?



I do often do LIT cardio, but mostly in the afternoons on my non-lift days. This means HIIT cardio in the morning and LIT cardio PM. Couple this with only 80-100 grams of carbs and im a real jerk to be around! Its only a couple days a week though.

Thanks for your advice.

HIIT on low carbs is a very fast way to lose muscle and is not smart. I would never recommend that approach. If you are on a low carb approach, i.e. calories less than 20% of total, then low to moderate intensity is the proper approach to cardio, NOT HIT. That's probably why you feel horrible. Only if you were way behind and could surround the HIT cardio with your only carbs for the day and you weren't also lifting on that day MIGHT I recommend HIT on a low carb approach, but other than that, you are going to be burning right through muscle...

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

That said, if my strength in squats remains constant (maybe a slight drop due to lack of carbs), you think its OK staying with 4 HIIT sessions @ 6 weeks out?

Strength is one way to gauge, yes...but it will probably keep dropping if you do HIIT cardio 4Xweek on low carbs...




I do often do LIT cardio, but mostly in the afternoons on my non-lift days. This means HIIT cardio in the morning and LIT cardio PM. Couple this with only 80-100 grams of carbs and im a real jerk to be around! Its only a couple days a week though.

Thanks for your advice.

80g-100g/day...what's your total caloric intake?

Sporto

[Cape1]

LIft - Hows it going buddy?!

I think most people who claim they are doing HIIT are really just doing variable intensity workouts and not breaking the anearobic threshold. I always chuckle to myself when I hear some guys say, "bro - you gotta do 3x hiit sessions per week...blah blah blah...."

Talk to any college track coach and ask them how many times a week they have their guys do "all out" speed work.

"all out" is HIIT, at least for the high piece. I don't think anyone is doing that more than once a week with a leg day, esspecially during a contest prep; if they are, they shouldn't be.

-Steve

[AustrianOakJr]

HIIT on low carbs is a very fast way to lose muscle and is not smart. I would never recommend that approach. If you are on a low carb approach, i.e. calories less than 20% of total, then low to moderate intensity is the proper approach to cardio, NOT HIT. That's probably why you feel horrible. Only if you were way behind and could surround the HIT cardio with your only carbs for the day and you weren't also lifting on that day MIGHT I recommend HIT on a low carb approach, but other than that, you are going to be burning right through muscle...

Sporto


Maybe, as Cape is saying, im not doing true HIIT? I dont know. I cycle the speed on the treadmill up and down 1 min at 5mph then about 45-55 seconds at 11.5 mph. By the time im done with the high speed cycle, my heart rate is in the high 160's - low 170's. IM wooped by the time im done with 25 min. However, its not an ALL OUT sprint for as long as I can take it......then back to a walk. If thats your definition of HIIT, then I do not train that way.

My carbs are not consistenly low. I cycle my carbs low (below 80) on the days I dont lift. Otherwise, they are in the 150 range. On legs days, they are in the 200+ range. My total cals for a given day is 1900-2000. I did a body transformation contest doing things this way and I lost 42 lbs and over 10% bodyfat in 14 weeks. But, I have no idea if I can keep this up as my BF goes single digits without sacrificing muscle.....never done this before.

I keep a log here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=109524791

Im a major newbie to competition and im going into this alone (cant afford a trainer right now). Id love to get your opinion if you ever get a hald second to browse through.

[fltallpaul]

Maybe, as Cape is saying, im not doing true HIIT? I dont know. I cycle the speed on the treadmill up and down 1 min at 5mph then about 45-55 seconds at 11.5 mph. By the time im done with the high speed cycle, my heart rate is in the high 160's - low 170's. IM wooped by the time im done with 25 min. However, its not an ALL OUT sprint for as long as I can take it......then back to a walk. If thats your definition of HIIT, then I do not train that way.

My carbs are not consistenly low. I cycle my carbs low (below 80) on the days I dont lift. Otherwise, they are in the 150 range. On legs days, they are in the 200 range. My total cals for a given day is 1900-2000. I did a body transformation contest doing things this way and I lost 42 lbs and over 10% bodyfat in 14 weeks. But, I have no idea if I can keep this up as my BF goes single digits without sacrificing muscle.....never done this before.

I keep a log here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=109524791

Im a major newbie to competition and im going into this alone (cant afford a trainer right now). Id love to get your opinion if you ever get a hald second to browse through.

I am not sure if you have tried this but also consider doing a refeed day where you pretty much double your carb intake. I know when my bodyfat got really low and stubborn the refeed seemed to force my body to continue burning fat. Here is an idea of what I was doing.

200 grams of carbs for 3 days, 400 grams for one day from all good sources. No sugars, just sweet potato's, brown rice, oatmeal and veggies. I would gain a lb or two the day after the refeed and have a sick workout, then two days later I would be a lb lower than before the refeed. I tried to eliminate the refeeds when I got close because gaining made me nervous but realized without them I wasn't losing weight. I was in the gym 7 days a week for the last few weeks so I didn't go below 200, and HIT cardio 4 days a week also helped...

[AustrianOakJr]

I am not sure if you have tried this but also consider doing a refeed day where you pretty much double your carb intake. I know when my bodyfat got really low and stubborn the refeed seemed to force my body to continue burning fat. Here is an idea of what I was doing.

200 grams of carbs for 3 days, 400 grams for one day from all good sources. No sugars, just sweet potato's, brown rice, oatmeal and veggies. I would gain a lb or two the day after the refeed and have a sick workout, then two days later I would be a lb lower than before the refeed. I tried to eliminate the refeeds when I got close because gaining made me nervous but realized without them I wasn't losing weight. I was in the gym 7 days a week for the last few weeks so I didn't go below 200, and HIT cardio 4 days a week also helped...

Hey Paul. I do incorporate refeeds once per week. I usually raise my calories up to (around) maintenance. I have noticed the same pattern you speak of. Up a pound (or so), down to regular weight the next day, then losing weight like a crazy man the following (especially if I drop the carbs low again). I generally dont really have trouble losing the weight.....I am just concerned I am maximizing FAT loss.....and holding onto muscle.

[Sporto1633]

LIft - Hows it going buddy?!

I think most people who claim they are doing HIIT are really just doing variable intensity workouts and not breaking the anearobic threshold. I always chuckle to myself when I hear some guys say, "bro - you gotta do 3x hiit sessions per week...blah blah blah...."

Talk to any college track coach and ask them how many times a week they have their guys do "all out" speed work.

"all out" is HIIT, at least for the high piece. I don't think anyone is doing that more than once a week with a leg day, esspecially during a contest prep; if they are, they shouldn't be.

-Steve

I agree with what you are saying except for the bold part. Some may not need to incorporate more than 1 HIIT session (think ectos and hardgainers), but most will in order to get striated hamstrings and glutes.


Maybe, as Cape is saying, im not doing true HIIT? I dont know. I cycle the speed on the treadmill up and down 1 min at 5mph then about 45-55 seconds at 11.5 mph. By the time im done with the high speed cycle, my heart rate is in the high 160's - low 170's. IM wooped by the time im done with 25 min. However, its not an ALL OUT sprint for as long as I can take it......then back to a walk. If thats your definition of HIIT, then I do not train that way.

HIIT cardio takes many forms...the important part is the interval part. It doesn't have to be all out sprinting as far as you can take it, but the intensity does need to be high. If youa re doing it correctly, heart rate will be way up and that's the main thing...


My carbs are not consistenly low. I cycle my carbs low (below 80) on the days I dont lift. Otherwise, they are in the 150 range. On legs days, they are in the 200+ range. My total cals for a given day is 1900-2000. I did a body transformation contest doing things this way and I lost 42 lbs and over 10% bodyfat in 14 weeks. But, I have no idea if I can keep this up as my BF goes single digits without sacrificing muscle.....never done this before.

I keep a log here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=109524791

Im a major newbie to competition and im going into this alone (cant afford a trainer right now). Id love to get your opinion if you ever get a hald second to browse through.

That's fine...if you are doing HIIT then I would not do them on your low days. Make sure you've got a good amount of carbs to use around the HIIT and workouts...

Sporto

[AustrianOakJr]

That's fine...if you are doing HIIT then I would not do them on your low days. Make sure you've got a good amount of carbs to use around the HIIT and workouts...

Sporto

Ill try it. Im gonna drop my HIIT sessions back to two per week on my chest day and back day. Intuitively, it doesnt seem like it would be as effective to do cardio with carbs in your system, but I will try it out. I will keep the carbs higher and have some carbs before I train HIIT. When I do HIIT, its first thing in the morning. Usually, I just do a 25 gram shot of protein prior and BCAA's during. I literally workout within 45 min of waking (this is my only option). Would a slice of multi grain toast and jam be sufficient? The sugar from the jam to spike insulin and the toast to give a bit of a long lasting effect? I really dont want to add many more calories into my diet.

[Sporto1633]

Ill try it. Im gonna drop my HIIT sessions back to two per week on my chest day and back day. Intuitively, it doesnt seem like it would be as effective to do cardio with carbs in your system, but I will try it out. I will keep the carbs higher and have some carbs before I train HIIT. When I do HIIT, its first thing in the morning. Usually, I just do a 25 gram shot of protein prior and BCAA's during. I literally workout within 45 min of waking (this is my only option). Would a slice of multi grain toast and jam be sufficient? The sugar from the jam to spike insulin and the toast to give a bit of a long lasting effect? I really dont want to add many more calories into my diet.

Then don't add calories...trade calories. What are you daily macros like?

And why intuitively does it seem like cardio won't be effective with carbs in your system? If that had ANY truth to it, I wouldn't be a pro. I was having cheerios, skim milk, and a protein shake both before and after every HIIT cardio session. But why does it SEEM like it won't work for you?

Sporto

[fltallpaul]

Then don't add calories...trade calories. What are you daily macros like?

And why intuitively does it seem like cardio won't be effective with carbs in your system? If that had ANY truth to it, I wouldn't be a pro. I was having cheerios, skim milk, and a protein shake both before and after every HIIT cardio session. But why does it SEEM like it won't work for you?

Sporto


Tommy...so many are still under the influence of doing fasted cardio, just like cutting water its one thing that will probably be around forever. I always try to explain it in terms of a sprinter...they are full of muscle, lean as hell and eat a ton of calories....

Then look at a marathoner....end of discussion...I would much rather be a sprinter, a huge sprinter...lol.

[str8flexed]

lots of sensible people in this thread :)

[AustrianOakJr]

Then don't add calories...trade calories. What are you daily macros like?

And why intuitively does it seem like cardio won't be effective with carbs in your system? If that had ANY truth to it, I wouldn't be a pro. I was having cheerios, skim milk, and a protein shake both before and after every HIIT cardio session. But why does it SEEM like it won't work for you?

Sporto

My macros change from day to day.....depending on the workout load. Most commonly on a morning cardio/ afternoon lift day I take in 220-230 grams of protein, 150 grams of carbs and 40 grams of fat.

Im not saying that I disagree with you. Dont get me wrong. Im willing to try any suggestion.....as I said, im a newbie to competition.

It SEEMS like it wouldnt be as effective because, the way I understand HIIT is that the purpose of it is not to burn fat ON the treadmill, but OFF the treadmill (normal daily activity). This happens because of the glycogen depleting effect that HIIT has. When you deplete glycogen during HIIT sessions, the body looks to hold onto glycogen and turns to burn fat during the day. OK......so if I am providing my body with carbs prior to the workout, then glucose is tapped as an energy source first. It seems like the workout wouldnt have as much effect on glycogen stores when training with carbs in your system. I never train fasted.....always with protein to spare muscle.

Maybe I dont get it. Maybe I dont understand the way the body prioritizes energy sources. Obviously, you know what the hell your doing by the looks of you....so im listening. And I appreciate your willingness to share info.

[Cape1]

[QUOTE=Sporto1633;218403371]I agree with what you are saying except for the bold part. Some may not need to incorporate more than 1 HIIT session (think ectos and hardgainers), but most will in order to get striated hamstrings and glutes.

Whatever works I guess. I'm doing one sprint day where I do a 400m sprint and 4 half gassers (warm up with a few laps). Add a leg day during the week and that's enough to pretty much smoke my lower body. I cant imagine doing more high intensity work and this is at a 'calorie +' diet. I'm a classic endo.

My legs were actually be best body part at my recent first show. I had great separation and some striations. The judges I talked to commented that it's unusual for someone to have more crispness in their legs than abs - lol. By the way: only 1 high intensity workout during prep - maybe two would have brought out the abs a little more!

Either way, we all have to do what works I guess. I just think that excessive high intensity road work is a sure recipe for overtraining.

[Sporto1633]

Whatever works I guess. I'm doing one sprint day where I do a 400m sprint and 4 half gassers (warm up with a few laps). Add a leg day during the week and that's enough to pretty much smoke my lower body. I cant imagine doing more high intensity work and this is at a 'calorie +' diet. I'm a classic endo.

My legs were actually be best body part at my recent first show. I had great separation and some striations. The judges I talked to commented that it's unusual for someone to have more crispness in their legs than abs - lol. By the way: only 1 high intensity workout during prep - maybe two would have brought out the abs a little more!

Either way, we all have to do what works I guess. I just think that excessive high intensity road work is a sure recipe for overtraining.

Yes, we all must do what works for us. 1 HIIT session and 1 leg workout may have been enough to smoke your lower body, but that depends on quite a few things...where your cals are at, how long you've been dieting, how high your leg volume is, etc. My point is, if you bring the leg volume down on leg days, more HIIT cardio is not excessive at all and will really help with the stubborn fat. You say you only did legs once a week, right? What kind of volume were you doing? And were the judges talking about crispness from the front or back? Were your glutes and hamstrings striated?

Sporto

[str8flexed]

[QUOTE=Sporto1633;218403371]I agree with what you are saying except for the bold part. Some may not need to incorporate more than 1 HIIT session (think ectos and hardgainers), but most will in order to get striated hamstrings and glutes.

Whatever works I guess. I'm doing one sprint day where I do a 400m sprint and 4 half gassers (warm up with a few laps). Add a leg day during the week and that's enough to pretty much smoke my lower body. I cant imagine doing more high intensity work and this is at a 'calorie +' diet. I'm a classic endo.

My legs were actually be best body part at my recent first show. I had great separation and some striations. The judges I talked to commented that it's unusual for someone to have more crispness in their legs than abs - lol. By the way: only 1 high intensity workout during prep - maybe two would have brought out the abs a little more!

Either way, we all have to do what works I guess. I just think that excessive high intensity road work is a sure recipe for overtraining.
that's because that is what your baseline is and what your body is adjusted to. When I worked out legs 1x/week I was so sore after my leg days and I always thought "No way I could workout legs more frequently, i'd 'overtrain'" Then when I actually got the cojones to try legs multiple times per week, the first few weeks I was extremely sore and thought "OMG I"m overtraining" but I stuck it out and low and behold after about a month after my body had adjusted to it my legs were fine... they were recovering faster because they adjusted to the volume and frequency with more growth and faster recuperation time. Now I work out legs 3x/week doing multiple hiit sessions and my legs have grown more than ever and they hardly ever get sore for more than a day. Most people never get a chance to get these benefits however because if they even try multiple times per week, the first few weeks they get sore and they say ZOMG I'M OVERTRAINING.

No, just takes time for your body to adjust.

[str8flexed]

My macros change from day to day.....depending on the workout load. Most commonly on a morning cardio/ afternoon lift day I take in 220-230 grams of protein, 150 grams of carbs and 40 grams of fat.

Im not saying that I disagree with you. Dont get me wrong. Im willing to try any suggestion.....as I said, im a newbie to competition.

It SEEMS like it wouldnt be as effective because, the way I understand HIIT is that the purpose of it is not to burn fat ON the treadmill, but OFF the treadmill (normal daily activity). This happens because of the glycogen depleting effect that HIIT has. When you deplete glycogen during HIIT sessions, the body looks to hold onto glycogen and turns to burn fat during the day. OK......so if I am providing my body with carbs prior to the workout, then glucose is tapped as an energy source first. It seems like the workout wouldnt have as much effect on glycogen stores when training with carbs in your system. I never train fasted.....always with protein to spare muscle.

Maybe I dont get it. Maybe I dont understand the way the body prioritizes energy sources. Obviously, you know what the hell your doing by the looks of you....so im listening. And I appreciate your willingness to share info.

that's only part of it. HIIT causes long term metabolic adaptations that have a greater cumulative effect on fat burning than the calories/fat burned during the day that you actually do HIIT. Having carbs before hiit does not make it ineffective. You are looking it too narrowly and missing the forest through the trees :D

[Cape1]

Layne - Why, from a technical point of view, is it that when I was a fat bastard, I could go out and jog 6+ miles on an empty stomach (gulp..) but now that I'm lean, not only must I be fed but if I don't munch on something or drink some sort of carb drink along the way - cytomax or something - my limit is about 20 minutes? Is it really just a matter of being lean and having less energy stores or is there a more technical reason.

Not to Hijack this but I think this is at least a peripheral question with added value.

Thanks

[Sporto1633]

[QUOTE=Cape1;218543711]
that's because that is what your baseline is and what your body is adjusted to. When I worked out legs 1x/week I was so sore after my leg days and I always thought "No way I could workout legs more frequently, i'd 'overtrain'" Then when I actually got the cojones to try legs multiple times per week, the first few weeks I was extremely sore and thought "OMG I"m overtraining" but I stuck it out and low and behold after about a month after my body had adjusted to it my legs were fine... they were recovering faster because they adjusted to the volume and frequency with more growth and faster recuperation time. Now I work out legs 3x/week doing multiple hiit sessions and my legs have grown more than ever and they hardly ever get sore for more than a day. Most people never get a chance to get these benefits however because if they even try multiple times per week, the first few weeks they get sore and they say ZOMG I'M OVERTRAINING.

No, just takes time for your body to adjust.

Bingo. Overtraining is actually pretty hard to do :D It's amazing how adaptive the human body is given proper nutrition. RBE FTW!


Layne - Why, from a technical point of view, is it that when I was a fat bastard, I could go out and jog 6+ miles on an empty stomach (gulp..) but now that I'm lean, not only must I be fed but if I don't munch on something or drink some sort of carb drink along the way - cytomax or something - my limit is about 20 minutes? Is it really just a matter of being lean and having less energy stores or is there a more technical reason.

Not to Hijack this but I think this is at least a peripheral question with added value.

Thanks

Define fat bastard, since that is a very relative description. Were you obese?

Sporto

[FATHER FLEX]

I have been using higher frequency training over the last three years, and during this time span I experienced some of the best gains. This even though I had all ready experienced most of my "newb gains." I work everything 2-3 times a week, and can't see myself ever going back to the once a week traditional split.

Sure it was very hard at first, going through the adaptive phases, but just as its been mentioned numerous time on this thread. Your body adapts. :)

[Cape1]

[QUOTE=str8flexed;218753701]

Bingo. Overtraining is actually pretty hard to do :D It's amazing how adaptive the human body is given proper nutrition. RBE FTW!



Define fat bastard, since that is a very relative description. Were you obese?

Sporto


I was obese at one point: 270# and lord only knows what body fat. Got down to 230 late 2007 and began contest prep in Jan. Competed at 168 in July. My CV endurance is UNREAL but I need carbs or I'm useless wheras at 215-220 I could go out and jog without food at all and not have a poblem. It's not an endurance issue because I feel fine - it's like I just run out of gas. If I sip on cytomax or something all is well! I ran a 400m on Wednesday in 1:10. Certainly doesn't define me as a track athlete but as a 39 year old natural bodybuilder that isn't bad endurance.

[str8flexed]

Layne - Why, from a technical point of view, is it that when I was a fat bastard, I could go out and jog 6+ miles on an empty stomach (gulp..) but now that I'm lean, not only must I be fed but if I don't munch on something or drink some sort of carb drink along the way - cytomax or something - my limit is about 20 minutes? Is it really just a matter of being lean and having less energy stores or is there a more technical reason.

Not to Hijack this but I think this is at least a peripheral question with added value.

Thanks

because you were well above your setpoint and you had more than ample fatty acids available to spare blood glucose while jogging due to the large amount of adipose tissue... now that you're leaner... less adipose, less fatty acids, less able to spare blood glucose.

that's my guess

[SB100%Natural]

Fantastic thread, very interesting. Going back to the HIIT part and reducing total training volume of leg training. I'm a couple weeks out now and just 2 days ago I noticed a sudden and massive drop in my strength levels, mainly in the squat but also in some other exercises.

Would any of the posters here advise that I reduce total leg training volume at this point or is it too late now to bother now?

Like I said I've been fine in my strength levels until now.

I have done for a long time and do currently train legs 2x weekly. One heavy 3-5 reps day and 1 lighter day in the 8-15 rep range.

Worth mentioning perhaps that doing HIIT hill sprints has actually added half an inch to my quads, not reduced them so it gets a double thumbs up from me :)

[AustrianOakJr]

Worth mentioning perhaps that doing HIIT hill sprints has actually added half an inch to my quads, not reduced them so it gets a double thumbs up from me :)


You ADDED size to your thighs on a contest prep defecit???? Did you up calories on days when you did HIIT?

[SB100%Natural]

You ADDED size to your thighs on a contest prep defecit???? Did you up calories on days when you did HIIT?

Lol! Yeah that was what I thought WTF! but the tape says I added some size to the quads. That was about a month ago though. I dont know how accurate the results really are as it doesnt make sense to gain on a cut but it helps mentally I can say that for sure.

[liftjunkie06]

This is great stuff. I have already noticed an adaptation to the increased training. It really boils down to nutrition and in part genetics. I also have a genetic tendancy for faster recovery, hence the push, pull, HIIT, push, pull split. I have actually noticed increased tape measurements as well. however, I was larger before and lost some mass due to a shoulder injury from a car accident, so that's a different story all together. And, I think that keeping my carbs higher, on training days especially (around workouts), has really, really helped.