Want to Recover? A PCT Guide

[Blitz-Test]

Introduction:
This thread is just going over the basics of Post Cycle Treatment in a little more detail than typical.

To start off there are many PCT drugs that people use, SERMs being the most common, AIs being second to SERMs, and hCG a fertility hormone. I am not going to go to techincal, because the fact of the matter is if you need this guide to do a PCT you most likely will not be able to understand the terms or mechanisms needed to explain.


Why an AI PCT does not work:
Lets first think, and Aromatization Inhibitor stops the Aromatization enzyme from converting Testosterone into Estrogen, however do to the fact that your testosterone production is shut down, you will not reach the level of Testosterone needed to stimulate the function of these enzymes until further into a recovery.

Why a SERM PCT does not work:
We all should know that the reason we use a SERM for post cycle treatment is based on clinical studies that prove that as triphenylethylene compounds they stimulate the pituitary gland to increase the output of LH, which by a secondary function can increase the amount of testosterone produced by the testes. However even with increased LH production, your testicular desensitization has already occured and the levels of LH needed to stimulate testosterone high enough cannot be reached, and thus we would need another substance that worked through the exsact same mechanism to far surpass LH levels, this substance is hCG.

Why hCG PCT does not work:
I know I know, how can I say this, I just said that with hCG the exogenous stimulation is needed, however even though using hCG will kick start testosterone production and increase mass size of testicles, your body can still go through a relapse after discontinuation of hCG because the continuous pumping of hCG is what is maintaining the increase in testosterone, however you have not dealt with the problem that your natural LH production is suppress, and thus once hCG is discontinued nothing is taking its place.

In conclusion:
To fully recover from a shutdown period no matter how hard (simple testosterone cycle to the harshest of Trenbolone and Nandrolone suppressions) you are shut down, all three of these products are optimal. Now you have a slection on the SERMs and AIs...

Choosing your SERM:
Usually the choice is between Nolvadex and Clomid, Torem is arising but do the the lack of clinical studies I am inclined to leave it out and only focus on Nolvadex and Clomid, however Torem does seems to be a good choice and with more research into it, it may take the place of Clomid and Nolvadex or reach their status.

Well both of the SERMs work in the same way, the work by altering the binding capacity of the estrogen receptor leading to the decrease of estrogen effects on the tissues where these receptors reside. Many people believe that Nolvadex is better at altering these receptors but this is not true at all, Nolvadex and Clomid both alter the same receptors in the exsact same way. Likewise many people believe that Clomid is the only one that restores testosterone productions or atleast does a better job. However this is not true at all, actually the opposite is true Nolvadex is better at restoring testosterone production. But don't take my word for it, I will explain it for you, both of these compounds oppose the negative feedback from estrogen on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH, which stimulates LH output in the pituitary, as a result LH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, however Clomid desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH, while Nolvadex actually increases sensitivity and thus increases the amount of LH significantly more than clomid. Clomid also can increase SHBG which would lead to less free testosterone in the body.
SERM of choice: Nolvadex

Choosing your AI:
Well the third generation AIs are Letro, Arimidex, and Aromasin. However they are not all equally different, in fact Letro and Adex are very similiar they are both Type II AIs and Aromasin is a Type I. Now to explain the difference, Type I AIs attach themselves to the Aromatization enzyme deactivating them rendering them destroyed, so aromatization is disabled until further production of the aromatization enzyme which can be well after the AI has cleared the system, Type II AIs it competively binds to the Aromatization Enzyme, however nothing actually happens to the enzyme it is just temporarily disabled, so once the AI clears the system the enzyme is still effective.

So, which is better Type I or Type II, well they both serve the same function however Aromasin or Type I inhibitors may serve our purpose better because once the discontinuation of the substance occurs, the build up of the enzymes will take time thus removing the rebound of aromatization effect that Type II inhibitors cause.

That however cannot be the icing on the cake, because that rebound effect is speculation and the fact that Aromasin will not cause it has never been proven. So we have to look at other issues since they both will suppress estrogen, in many clinical studies Aromasin has been shown not only to increase the amount of testosterone through inhibiting it from aromatization, but also increases the natural output, by mechanisms not yet determined fully, also it has claim to increasing natural IGF levels, which is a very anabolic peptide. We must also look at which is better for you, well Aromasin has virtually no effect on lipids and cholesterol, unlike adex and letro which effect them.
AI of choice: Aromasin


Steroid Cycle;
Week 1-10 Compound 1
Week 1-8 Compound 2
Week 1-4 Compound 3

How to recover:

hCG
Week 3-12 500IU/e3d
* hCG should be administed every 3 days because the natural release of LH is in pulses it has heavy times and light times and this is roughly every 3 days, so in an act to try and simulate the natural function you should inject e3d. However 500IU is much higher than your natural LH amount but, you have an outside source lowering the LH very frequently so you must combat it with a higher amount. Why we did not taper, well in my mind the only reasoning for starting with a high dose is to increase blood levels, however as I just said LH works in pulses and thus flucation of amounts is good.

Nolvadex
Week 12 40mg/ed
Week 13-17 20mg/ed
*Pretty simple here, however we extended the duration from the typical 4 weeks and lowered the length of time at 40mg, clinical studies have shown no difference between 40mg and 20mg a day, so there is no reason to continue at this dose, however we started with it to peak blood levels.

Aromasin
Week 15-17 25mg/ed
*The reason we will use this at the end of the cycle is because, using it at the beginning is pointless because there is not enough testosterone to fight the conversion, also the reason we did not use this between weeks 10-12 like I have seen some people do is because this could keep your testosterone levels higher than normal and thus your body will not sense the fact that it needs to produce more as well as it should even with the stimulation of the LH mechanism.

In conclusion utilizing all three of these substances will lead to a full recovery, hCG to stimulate the LH mechanism to increase testosterone production and limit shutdown, Nolvadex to increase the amount of LH to continue the mechanism after the end of hCG, Aromasin, to help fight off the catabolic effects of estrogen by destroying the enzymes that cause aromatization, and also to further increase natural testosterone production and increase IGF levels, to continue to stay anabolic.


(Note: Take this how you will, some facts may be off somewhat, somethings you might not agree on however, this protocol does have merit and does have alot of support to back it up)

[put5onyo]

Basically Vision's PCT protocol but with Nolvadex instead of Clomid.

Nice write up though.

Reps.

Edit: Need to spread it around. Sorry.

[Blitz-Test]

Basically Vision's PCT protocol but with Nolvadex instead of Clomid.

Nice write up though.

Reps.

Edit: Need to spread it around. Sorry.

You got a like to visions lol havent seen it

[put5onyo]

You got a like to visions lol havent seen it

Can always be found in Emmortal's signature:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=107804251

Yours is much more cleaned up however, and like I said, you advise Nolvadex instead of Clomid. He also says HCG starting Wk 1 with two 1500iu shots right before PCT. Basically the same though.

[Blitz-Test]

Just skimmed over his, and I was also going to recommend jumping the dose up before pct starts in the last week, however i just decided against it,

The thing I dont like about his is he said that there isnt or he cant find any studies that shown nolvadex increase test which is a myth, I clear it up in mine that Nolva actually trumps clomid in this field...

Unless anyone can refute my nolva vs clomid paragraph I am going to render clomid obsolete in comparison to Nolvadex

[put5onyo]

Unless anyone can refute my nolva vs clomid paragraph I am going to render clomid obsolete in comparison to Nolvadex


My only argument to that is that I don't feel Nolvadex necessarily renders clomid obsolete. It may be better that Clomid, but it really is just splitting hairs. Either one will work fine IMO.

[TripTastic]

Blitz....did you write that up yourself? Cool info btw....however the HCG should be from the very beginning.....AS SOON AS your body recognizes the artificial test your body will stop producing it's own.

[Blitz-Test]

Blitz....did you write that up yourself? Cool info btw....however the HCG should be from the very beginning.....AS SOON AS your body recognizes the artificial test your body will stop producing it's own.
Yea I just wrote it up today

I dunno from the studies I have seen it takes up to 4 weeks for the body to reach suppression, specifically lh and test, I could be wrong, it definatly couldn't hurt to start from the get go

[N4cer]

But nolvadex DOESN'T trump clomid in HPTA upregulation.

[IceMan13]

I already repped you, man, but THIS is exactly what we need to see more of on here. It is so easy for someone to jump on here for a few months and be able to regurgitate whatever he/she hears without supporting themself.

[Blitz-Test]

But nolvadex DOESN'T trump clomid in HPTA upregulation.

How does clomid beat nolvadex?

They both bind to the same receptors, the same way, so their estrogen competetitor characteristics are the same.

GnRH is what is signaled to release from these serms fighting estrogen feedback on them, then LH is stimulated to produce which then signals the testes into producing testosterone, however, Nolvadex makes the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH while clomid desensitizes which then leads to less LH production and thus less testosterone production

[N4cer]

No, because clomiphene binds stronger at the hypothalamus, providing more stimulation of GnRH release. And where did you find reputable info that clomiphene desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH in our short duration of use?

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that I've never seen reliable information leading to that conclusion. And that after watching multiple users use each compound, clomiphene has led to better blood work in shorter amounts of time.

[car00]

I use Toremifene over Nolva any day. Besides being much better than Nolva, it increases igf where as Nolva decreases it. One can use Toremifene alone and have no problems recovering.

[glycomann]

Blitz, nice effort but I can't completely agree with the it. I can't say it won't work to stack all these things together but I am from the KISS "keep it simple stupid" school of thought. For me Clomid alone does the trick. Nolva alone does less and HCG either mixed with SERMS or done alone seems to give me a spurt in HPTA function followed by a lag. I hate HCG. I think it just causes atrophy of the friendship between the Hypothalamus and the pituitary. Best protocols for me had Clomid and Nolvadex starting with Clomid and adding nolvadex and finishing with just Nolvadex. The phenomenon you refer to where Clomid decreases Pituitary GnRH sensitivity is only after 3 weeks if I recall my literature correctly and then it was compared to Nolvadex. That is to say in that regard it is a little less effective at the hypothalamic/pituitary interaction than nolva. The overall effect is entirely a different story. For me running Clomid for 3 weeks and tappering in Nolvadex at week 2 and ending with nolva only at the end of week 5 works well. Clomid alone works probably about as well though, at least for me.... But hey, I rarely go over 12 weeks for any AAS cycle. ANYWAY, some of the differences people see are due to biological variation from person to person, drugs used in cycle and the propensity for all of us to continue to experiment to find something better rather than stick to something that works.

[1bebigger]

I use Toremifene over Nolva any day. Besides being much better than Nolva, it increases igf where as Nolva decreases it. One can use Toremifene alone and have no problems recovering.

one can use nothing and recover in 4-6 weeks. your point?

we are talking about maxium recovery here in the shortest amount of time.thus- not losing lots of hard earned muscle

clean writeup blitz- im on the same protocol.. just decided to add aromasin in the mix though and i started my hcg at week 5 which was a litltle late. but i feel the boys back to size and im excited about my pct and seeing if i can keep all of my gains.

[Bodfather]

Blitz, nice effort but I can't completely agree with the it. I can't say it won't work to stack all these things together but I am from the KISS "keep it simple stupid" school of thought. For me Clomid alone does the trick. Nolva alone does less and HCG either mixed with SERMS or done alone seems to give me a spurt in HPTA function followed by a lag. I hate HCG. I think it just causes atrophy of the friendship between the Hypothalamus and the pituitary. Best protocols for me had Clomid and Nolvadex starting with Clomid and adding nolvadex and finishing with just Nolvadex. The phenomenon you refer to where Clomid decreases Pituitary GnRH sensitivity is only after 3 weeks if I recall my literature correctly and then it was compared to Nolvadex. That is to say in that regard it is a little less effective at the hypothalamic/pituitary interaction than nolva. The overall effect is entirely a different story. For me running Clomid for 3 weeks and tappering in Nolvadex at week 2 and ending with nolva only at the end of week 5 works well. Clomid alone works probably about as well though, at least for me.... But hey, I rarely go over 12 weeks for any AAS cycle. ANYWAY, some of the differences people see are due to biological variation from person to person, drugs used in cycle and the propensity for all of us to continue to experiment to find something better rather than stick to something that works.

Wow, you hate Hcg!
1st time for everything(me seeing someone hate hcg...)
Elaborate a bit on why?

I started my hcg last week(250iu x2 shots) and my balls are aching a bit today, normal?

[5x10]

after a nolvadex pct, my test levels were 240
after a clomid pct, my test levels were 614

i like the pct, but based on my experience, i would switch the nolva/clomid

[glycomann]

Wow, you hate Hcg!
1st time for everything(me seeing someone hate hcg...)
Elaborate a bit on why?

I started my hcg last week(250iu x2 shots) and my balls are aching a bit today, normal?

Like I said, I think it short circuits HPTA at the hypothalamic-pituitary junction. There is no need for GnRH FSH or LH in the presence of HCG. Therefore, the hypothalamic tissues that produce GnRH atrophy considerably as do the tissues in the pituitary that produce LH and FSH. This is not the case even in the presence of a gram of AAS. There is still some function albeit much reduced. HCG just shuts this down leading to more difficulty in recovery in my opinion. Sure your gonads increase in size but one HGC is removed you are left with an atrophied pituitary and hypothalamus.

[5x10]

Like I said, I think it short circuits HPTA at the hypothalamic-pituitary junction. There is no need for GnRH FSH or LH in the presence of HCG. Therefore, the hypothalamic tissues that produce GnRH atrophy considerably as do the tissues in the pituitary that produce LH and FSH. This is not the case even in the presence of a gram of AAS. There is still some function albeit much reduced. HCG just shuts this down leading to more difficulty in recovery in my opinion. Sure your gonads increase in size but one HGC is removed you are left with an atrophied pituitary and hypothalamus.
ive read that you take hcg because the longer your body goes without LH, the less sensitive it is to it

[1bebigger]

ive read that you take hcg because the longer your body goes without LH, the less sensitive it is to it

ot- that pic makes your pecs look huge!

yes.. this is supposed to be the reason to administering hcg- so that lh function is "mimiced"

[glycomann]

Well do what you like then. Good luck.

[N4cer]

NO! The reason for HCG use is only to reverse atrophy before starting PCT.

[N4cer]

one can use nothing and recover in 4-6 weeks. your point?Um, nope.

[glycomann]

NO! The reason for HCG use is only to reverse atrophy before starting PCT.

That's about the only time I would use it and it would be pretty limited.

[Blitz-Test]

No, because clomiphene binds stronger at the hypothalamus, providing more stimulation of GnRH release. And where did you find reputable info that clomiphene desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH in our short duration of use?

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that I've never seen reliable information leading to that conclusion. And that after watching multiple users use each compound, clomiphene has led to better blood work in shorter amounts of time.

I have 2 articles on the desensitization just gotta find it for you, ill post it up, I cannot say its the same for each dose or each person or each case, this is just a general overview saying this will help you recover alot better then most pcts i see nowadays

I use Toremifene over Nolva any day. Besides being much better than Nolva, it increases igf where as Nolva decreases it. One can use Toremifene alone and have no problems recovering.

I have not seen enough studies on torem to prove it to be better, in theory yes, but theory does not prove anything, im sure it is good but, nolva has stood the test of time... Torem cannot take the place of hcg....

No studies i have seen prove that torem increase igf, no studies i have seen show igf to decrease in all subjects with nolva....

Blitz, nice effort but I can't completely agree with the it. I can't say it won't work to stack all these things together but I am from the KISS "keep it simple stupid" school of thought. For me Clomid alone does the trick. Nolva alone does less and HCG either mixed with SERMS or done alone seems to give me a spurt in HPTA function followed by a lag. I hate HCG. I think it just causes atrophy of the friendship between the Hypothalamus and the pituitary. Best protocols for me had Clomid and Nolvadex starting with Clomid and adding nolvadex and finishing with just Nolvadex. The phenomenon you refer to where Clomid decreases Pituitary GnRH sensitivity is only after 3 weeks if I recall my literature correctly and then it was compared to Nolvadex. That is to say in that regard it is a little less effective at the hypothalamic/pituitary interaction than nolva. The overall effect is entirely a different story. For me running Clomid for 3 weeks and tappering in Nolvadex at week 2 and ending with nolva only at the end of week 5 works well. Clomid alone works probably about as well though, at least for me.... But hey, I rarely go over 12 weeks for any AAS cycle. ANYWAY, some of the differences people see are due to biological variation from person to person, drugs used in cycle and the propensity for all of us to continue to experiment to find something better rather than stick to something that works.

In my personal opinion that fact that clomid does desensitize, and it has been shown on many subjects, (not all mind you) makes it have less merit then nolva, nolva increases sensitivity, while clomid desensistizes and we are seeing longer and longer pcts now leading most to believe that upwards of 6 weeks is much much better than 4 even at lower doses, so clomid would desensitize over time so by week 6 it would be pretty significant, so we could assume in the long run, long pct nolva would be better... But assuming cant prove anything..

Also this is just a guide and also of people can get away with alot less, and some people recover way better with clomid than nolva and vica versa, but this is just a guide that will work everytime, something might work better but this will work everytime

one can use nothing and recover in 4-6 weeks. your point?

we are talking about maxium recovery here in the shortest amount of time.thus- not losing lots of hard earned muscle

clean writeup blitz- im on the same protocol.. just decided to add aromasin in the mix though and i started my hcg at week 5 which was a litltle late. but i feel the boys back to size and im excited about my pct and seeing if i can keep all of my gains.

I have never seen someone get bloodwork that proves they can recover in 6 weeks with nothing, i hear alot of people saying they are recovered because they get hard again but that doesnt prove much.. lol some 80 year old men can get hard, you dont want test levels like him..

Also let me know how things go for you, interested to hear!

after a nolvadex pct, my test levels were 240
after a clomid pct, my test levels were 614

i like the pct, but based on my experience, i would switch the nolva/clomid

To each his own right,

Also was it the same cycle?

Same length?

Same pct scheme?

Same levels pre cycle?

Same lab gear?

Same batch number?

So many variables

ive read that you take hcg because the longer your body goes without LH, the less sensitive it is to it

I have never seen this in any studies, although i may be wrong,

[YoungGunner24s]

No, because clomiphene binds stronger at the hypothalamus, providing more stimulation of GnRH release. And where did you find reputable info that clomiphene desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH in our short duration of use?

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that I've never seen reliable information leading to that conclusion. And that after watching multiple users use each compound, clomiphene has led to better blood work in shorter amounts of time.

Looks like bull**** to me. Clomid is the only thing proven to restore the HPTA after massive steroid abuse, not just these pissant 10-12 week cycles.

Why people even debate the efficacy of clomid vs nolva is beyond me.

[glycomann]

Wow, you hate Hcg!
1st time for everything(me seeing someone hate hcg...)
Elaborate a bit on why?

I started my hcg last week(250iu x2 shots) and my balls are aching a bit today, normal?

Re-read my post. The reasons are there.

[glycomann]

1: J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21. Links
Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

PMID: 16422830 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.Tan RS, Vasudevan D.
Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. robert.s.tan@uth.tmc.edu

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

PMID: 12524089 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Fertil Steril. 2006 Nov;86(5):1513.e5-9. Links
Complete reversal of adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with clomiphene citrate.Ioannidou-Kadis S, Wright PJ, Neely RD, Quinton R.
Department of Endocrinology, Royal Victoria Infirmary and University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, United Kingdom.

OBJECTIVE: Inhibition of pituitary gonadotropin secretion in men by T is principally mediated by aromatization to estrogen (E), which inhibits hypothalamic secretion of GnRH. We hypothesized that adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) might result from an altered central set-point for E-mediated negative feedback. DESIGN AND SETTING: Longitudinal clinical investigation unit-based evaluation of the clinical and biochemical response to E-receptor blockade. PATIENT(S): A 31-year-old man presenting with an 18-month history of sexual dysfunction resulting from severe adult-onset IHH (LH 1.7 U/L, FSH 2.0 U/L, T 3.5 nmol/L). INTERVENTION(S): Initial therapy with 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) three times a day for 7 days, with overnight LH pulse profiling and 9 am T levels evaluated at baseline and on completion. A 2-month washout period, followed by low-dose maintenance therapy (25-50 mg/d) for 4 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Baseline and stimulated T levels and LH pulsatility; effect on sexual function. RESULT(S): Clomiphene therapy resulted in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum T level, and sexual function. CONCLUSION(S): Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism may result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to E-mediated negative feedback. Whereas direct T replacement therapy can further suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, treating IHH men with gonadotropins can stimulate endogenous T secretion and enhance fertility potential. On theoretical grounds, reversal of gonadotropin deficiency with CC might be expected to have a similar biological effect.

PMID: 17070201 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Fertil Steril. 1997 Apr;67(4):783-5. Links

Comment in:
Fertil Steril. 1997 Oct;68(4):745.
Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in a male runner is reversed by clomiphene citrate.Burge MR, Lanzi RA, Skarda ST, Eaton RP.
University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Department of Medicine/Endocrinology-5ACC, Albuquerque 87131, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To assess the efficacy of estrogen antagonist therapy on the function of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in a young male runner with significant morbidity attributable to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. DESIGN: An uncontrolled case study. SETTING: The outpatient endocrinology clinic of a university tertiary referral center. PATIENT(S): A 29-year-old male who has run 50 to 90 miles per week since 15 years of age and who presented with a pelvic stress fracture, markedly decreased bone mineral density, and symptomatic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate (CC) at doses up to 50 mg two times per day over a 5-month period. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Serum concentrations of LH, FSH, and T before and after CC therapy, as well as clinical indicators of gonadal function. RESULT(S): Barely detectable levels of LH and FSH associated with hypogonadal levels of T were restored to the normal range with CC therapy. The patient experienced improved erectile function, increased testicular size and sexual hair growth, and an improved sense of well being. CONCLUSION(S): Exercise-induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism exists as a clinical entity among male endurance athletes, and CC may provide a safe and effective treatment option for males with debilitating hypogonadism related to endurance exercise.

PMID: 9093212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Blitz-Test]

one can use nothing and recover in 4-6 weeks. your point?


OBJECTIVES/METHODS: To review the incidence of male infertility secondary to intake of anabolic products and our experience and outcomes with treatment. There is a variety of such substances (testosterone, nandrolone, stanozolol, etc.) in their intake may be unique or combinations, both orally or parenterally. Comparisons between patients and case series are difficult because of the hiding of this practice and various consumption practices and doses employed. RESULTS/CONCLUSIONS: Most of the patients recover normal spermatogenesis does by stopping intake of anabolic substances. The period of time until recovery is 6.35 months. Patients not recovering after six months were given tamoxifen 20 mg/24-hour, if having a normal or inhibited hypothalamus-hypophysis axis. Duration of abuse, doses, and anarchical consumption maderesponse to treatment with antiestrogen drugs or gonadotropins unpredictable in patients not responding to conservative treatment.

[Bodfather]

Re-read my post. The reasons are there.

Wow very thorough of you, thanx!
You are answered my question twice...lol
But im still wondering what you do bout ball shrinkage then?
Have you noticed that without HCG they always came back to full size?

[N4cer]

Recovery is concerned primarily with androgen production, and spermatogenesis is secondary.

[glycomann]

Recovery is concerned primarily with androgen production, and spermatogenesis is secondary.

Yeah, spematogenesis comes back very quickly. Then again he little wigglers never really go away. Don't really know why that is. There is almost always some spermatogenesis. I do know that FSH levels are much more stable as far as blood levels than LH. Full recovery is a different story.

[glycomann]

I

In my personal opinion that fact that clomid does desensitize, and it has been shown on many subjects, (not all mind you) makes it have less merit then nolva, nolva increases sensitivity, while clomid desensistizes and we are seeing longer and longer pcts now leading most to believe that upwards of 6 weeks is much much better than 4 even at lower doses, so clomid would desensitize over time so by week 6 it would be pretty significant, so we could assume in the long run, long pct nolva would be better... But assuming cant prove anything..

Also this is just a guide and also of people can get away with alot less, and some people recover way better with clomid than nolva and vica versa, but this is just a guide that will work everytime, something might work better but this will work everytime



CAn you PM or post some of these Nolvadex articles? I've seen like three total. I've seen the one showing Clomid desensitivization to GnRH over time. Some of these others I would be interested in. Me personally, If I do just 50 mg of Clomid/d for three weeks my testes are nearly twice the size as normal. I can do 40 mg of pharma grade nolva alone for the same amount of time and it seems like there is little effect other than some morning wood. There are probably about a dozen SERMs out there now. They all seem to tickle the system a little differently and there is some difficulty predicting how they Will act based on structure. This is a shame too b/c have a freaking boat load of Nolva. Put it this way, if I has as much clomid ans I do nolva I would have bowling balls for nuts!!

[forcountry]

No one is talking about the Aromasin. I'm gyno prone so I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on running Aromasin during PCT. 25mg/d seems like over kill... Maybe eod?

[Blitz-Test]

CAn you PM or post some of these Nolvadex articles? I've seen like three total. I've seen the one showing Clomid desensitivization to GnRH over time. Some of these others I would be interested in. Me personally, If I do just 50 mg of Clomid/d for three weeks my testes are nearly twice the size as normal. I can do 40 mg of pharma grade nolva alone for the same amount of time and it seems like there is little effect other than some morning wood. There are probably about a dozen SERMs out there now. They all seem to tickle the system a little differently and there is some difficulty predicting how they Will act based on structure. This is a shame too b/c have a freaking boat load of Nolva. Put it this way, if I has as much clomid ans I do nolva I would have bowling balls for nuts!!

ill get a couple up soon

[Tarlacon]

how about AIFM anyone have good luck with this?


if you don't know it is basically topical aromasin

[YoungGunner24s]

Yeah, spematogenesis comes back very quickly. Then again he little wigglers never really go away. Don't really know why that is. There is almost always some spermatogenesis. I do know that FSH levels are much more stable as far as blood levels than LH. Full recovery is a different story.

Exactly why the "male birth control" pill is a farce. There is ALWAYS a few live rounds in the tank no matter what steroids you use.

[glycomann]

Exactly why the "male birth control" pill is a farce. There is ALWAYS a few live rounds in the tank no matter what steroids you use.


I conceived my daughter at the tail end of a cycle 20 years ago.

[Blitz-Test]

Don't know the date on this one, I have it copied into a .txt

Quick cliffs on it, conducted in canada, used nolva for a steroid user who had low test levels and low LH levels, it worked



Gerstein HC, Capes SE, Iacobellis
Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, McMaster University, McMaster Hospital, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

OBJECTIVE: In this study we investigate the use of tamoxifen citrate in the reversal of lowered total testosterone and luteinizing hormone by the abuse of several anabolic steroids. DESIGN: Case Study. PATIENT(S): A 35 year old man, who has admitted to using several steroids including; testosterone, nandrolone, methandrostenolone, stanozolol, oxymetholone, and norethandrolone for several years. The patients testosterone levels were severely lower than average measuring at 156ng/dl, and luteinizing hormone measuring at only 0.93IU/L. INTERVENTION(S): Initial therapy with 40mg of tamoxifen citrate everyday for 21 days, followed by a maintenance dose of 10mg everyday for 49 days. MEASURES: Total testosterone and luteinizing hormone increase. RESULT(S): Reversal of negative feedback on testosterone and LH levels from steroid abuse, Total Testosterone levels reached 522ng/dl, and LH levels increase above average to 8.2IU/L. CONCLUSION(S): Tamoxifen citrate can successfully be used to restore Testosterone and Luteinizing Hormone levels after steroid abuse in a male patient.

[glycomann]

Don't know the date on this one, I have it copied into a .txt

Quick cliffs on it, conducted in canada, used nolva for a steroid user who had low test levels and low LH levels, it worked

Great find Blitz, thanks.

[Blitz-Test]

Don't know the date on this one, I have it copied into a .txt

Quick cliffs on it, conducted in canada, used nolva for a steroid user who had low test levels and low LH levels, it worked

Figured out this study was from Novemeber 2006

[strength777]

stickied

[strength777]

stickied

moving to Best of forum

[Reciprocity]

moving to Best of forum

Beat me to saying it bro! ;)