Ckd Keto Bulk

[hisroyalhotness]

I've decided to try a CKD bulk. Last July I weighed 155 @ 6'3" - exctomorph to the extreme. By Christmas I was very fat - at about 214. I guess chugging 4 shakes a day with whole milk, two tbsp of olive oil, bananas, and protein powder plus eating regular food didn't do me any good.
I got downright chubby - 214 @ about 20-22% bf. Went on a keto cut and got down to about 10.5% at 180 - so I did lose a good bit of muscle in the process, but I'd say I'm about 20 lbs heavier than I was when I started in July - and that is of muscle. Lesson learned - dirty bulking is not for me.
Anyway, was trying to eat a 40/40/20 diet and I just don't like how I'm breaking out, generally having a problem staying motivated, and I just miss keto.

I'm going to go for a keto bulk - CKD as recommended by LyleMCD on the low-carb pages. My diet includes cheese, high fat meats (pepperoni), heavy cream, and probably coconut milk.

I am intending on a mid week spike with Ultra Fuel of maybe 800 calories (the carb powder from twinlabs, I think). I am going to eat 200 g protein, 300 g fat, and < 30 g a carbs a day, for a total of around 3300 calories. I'll bump that up progressively.

Yesterday I stepped on the scale at 175. I figure if I can gain 1 lb of dry muscle every other week without gaining a percentage of fat (I will gain fat, but I would like only 10% of the weight gained to be fat) that would totally rock. I doubt it will happen that way, but we shall see.

Wish me luck!

[Knux]

Ckd keto bulks rock.

You'll love the results. Just remember to eat tons.

[hisroyalhotness]

Yeah Lyle MCD said 25x bodyweight - which is well above 4000 cals for me. That seemed really high. I'm going to try 3300 (which is probably about 800-1000 over maintenence). If I don't gain anything after a couple weeks, I'll bump it up by 500 or so.

[¡STFU!ˇNˆLIFT!]

keep your fat to less than 50g more than protein then after the first week keep it within 15g of your protein intake ..

Also if you wanna bulk TKD is a more sound solution you do know right ?

[hisroyalhotness]

Why limit it to 50 more? Will it cause a fat gain?

LyleMCD says 1.5f:1p or < 30 carbs is ideal. I figure on low carb days by doing both it will help me get into ketosis twice as fast. I could be wrong though. This is why I'm going to take measurements frequently during the beginning until I get dialed in.
Today I began and ate 300 g fats, 200g pro, 31 g carbs (probably less net carbs) - all the carbs were from the extra in the protein powder, and some whole cream, and some mozzerella I ate.
Tomorrow I will post my first workout, starting fat measurements, etc.

And why TKD?

[hisroyalhotness]

OK kids, this morning, I weighed myself in at a whopping 174.6. I tried as best I could to do a BF percentage and my BF has actually dropped lower than I thought! So at least that is good news.

Here's the breakdown of skinfold:

Chest: 8
Abdominal: 13
Thigh: 11
Tricep: 3
Supscapular: 13
Suprailiac: 5
Midauxillary: 6

Jackson/Pollock 7 Caliper Method Results:
Body Fat Percentage: 8.26
Lbs of Body Fat: 14.42
Lean Body Weight: 160.18

Today's diet will include 300 grams of fat from cheeses, fatty meats, and cream. 200 grams of protein will come from the same sources as well as 1-3 scoops of powder - about 3620 calories. Carbs will be limited to around 30 or below. Today is also workout day.

I'm figuring on a mid week carbup around Thursday, with 800 grams of carbs in the morning, followed by a whole body workout. Carb Loading will be from Saturday night to Monday morning. I just pushed it one day back.

[hisroyalhotness]

I'm just getting back to heavy lifting. It used to be that I could throw up 2 80lb dumbbells without a problem, 12-20 times. I was benching 225x5 on the smith machine, without great difficulty. Now I seem to struggle putting up a couple 75s. Can you say "weakling?" I'm going to just go with progressive overload until I get back to where I was strength wise, with a 4 day split.

Lunchtime workout:
(Weight x Reps x Sets)
DB Flat bench Press - 150x6x3
Standing curls w/curl bar 80x10x3
Close grip pulldowns on machine (palms out) - 160x10x3
Weighted crunches (machine) 110x10x3
Tricep Dips (unweighted)x1x10

[¡STFU!ˇNˆLIFT!]

You are so lost dude .. fats have almost twice as many calories per gram than protein ..


on keto - FIRST thing you should do is get 1g/lb LBM protein ..

the 1.5f:1p is the calorie ratio - NOT grams ...

here try this http://www.freedieting.com/tools/nutrient_calculator.htm?cals=2346

use 3% carbs and 33% protein and 67% fat for an example ..

which is like 1.5 :1 keto needs to be 65% - 70% fat and fat should be slightly higher than protein by 10-50g - closer to 50g when starting keto to get fat adapted wouldnt hurt ..

after that they should be about even - preferably with fat slightly higher ( taken pre-WO ) since that will be your fuel source on ckd ..


EXAMPLE - 2800 ckd calories = 211 fat - 203 protein - 21g carbs ( after fiber )

[hisroyalhotness]

Thanks for the advice. I know about basic nutrition. 4 cals/gram of p & c, 9 cals /gram of fat, 7 cal /gram of alcohol.

I've heard both things. "Dietary fat should be kept at 1.5 grams of fat per gram of protein OR carbs and total carbs per day should be kept below 30 grams." http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/ - the third CKD article is about CKD bulking. You'd think that if Lyle, author of the ketogenic diet and the UD2.0 is going to say something in a technical article, he is going to be precise.

However, people on this board have told me it is the caloric ratio, not the weight.

As far as 1 gram of protein, per LBM, I'm at least there. 200 grams protein is 40 over my lbm.

I feel like the most a natural lifter can benefit from is 1.5 grams/lb of lbm of protein per day. I think even this would cause most of the protein to be excreted.
So if I do 1 g/lb of lbm as you suggest that amount would put me at about 160 grams. Add 15 to that and it is 175 grams of fat. This is 2215 calories. I would drop weight at that amount.

I feel like my maintenence for my level of activity is around 2400-2600. Just eating 2000 cals has caused me to drop 5 lbs FAST. I'm an extreme ectomorph.

I just get the idea that the way to bump the intake up (it's simple thermodynamics) is to start with higher fat. If in a week or two I've put on fat from the excess fat intake, I will cut it and change things. However, while in ketosis, the fat that is not used is excreted rather than stored, so I doubt that will be the case. During the carb up days, I will continue to eat the fat, but about three+ hours after the initial insulin spike hits, which hopefully will prevent excess fat gain.

Maybe you are right, and if so I will indeed rep you to the fullest. Time will tell. For this week I will stick with the 300gf/200gp/30gc ratio.

[¡STFU!ˇNˆLIFT!]

1.5g protein would be okay for a bulk .. thing is excess protein turns to glucose ..

taper your fat down to 50g over protein after the 1st week of this bulk ..

and even less on non workout days . " fat cycling " if you will

I wasn't suggesting 1g/lb on a bulk - I was saying that's where to start working keto ratios ( on a cut )

[hisroyalhotness]

301g fat / 204 g pro /12 g carbs today.
No work out.
Kitostix are red, well into ketosis.

[dueco98]

Yow
I did 270g of fat a day, and it's not too fun.

[hisroyalhotness]

I don't mind it that much. I end up eating a lot of pepperoni, whole cream, and muenster cheese. I just hope my arteries don't completely harden due to the high sodium content of fatty meats.

[hisroyalhotness]

This morning I had 48 grams of protein in powder form at about 8:00. At about 9:15 I drank 800 grams of carbs (8 scoops) of Ultra Fuel, from Twinlab.

Went to the gym during lunch at about 12:30, and when I got back had about 48 grams of protein powder.
Workout was as follows:

Squats 245x10x3
Bar Freeweight Bench 155x7x3 (man, I have gotten weak)
curl bar 90x10x3
dips 10x3
military dumbbell press 45x10

[hisroyalhotness]

Saturday: Started out eating fats and protein probably around 200g fats and about the same of protein.
4pm started carb up. Took 25g of carbs, did lunges w/ 30lb barbells in each have (3x12), butterflies (45x3x10), then got interrupted.
After that, ate 500 grams of carbs throughout the day.

Today it will be pretty close to 1200g of carbs, 200g protein, 50g fat.

[hisroyalhotness]

OK got done with the carb up over the weekend - took in about 1000g of carbs. Did close to 300 g fat/200g pro on Monday, but I got behind and so I just drank a pint of heavy cream. That may have been a mistake, as the next day I didn't feel very well. Yesterday I did meet the 300g fat/200g pro goal.
This morning the scale says 178.0 , so that is an improvement, although it may just be crap or glycogen. Also, body fat appears to be staying the same. See my bodyspace.

[¡STFU!ˇNˆLIFT!]

smfh @ your fat intake

since you don't listen you DO KNOW that fat/protein/carb ratio is 65/30/5 approx for CKD right ?


http://www.freedieting.com/tools/nutrient_calculator.htm

use that

[hisroyalhotness]

OK I will, as soon as I either stop gaining lean mass or start gaining fat.

Literally, my bodyfat has actually gone down while my weight has gone up using this ratio. I went in at 174.6 a week ago, and cycled up to 178.0 (mostly glycogen refueling, but some dry muscle was added).

I get kicked into ketosis so much faster (and I check using the ketostix) using this ratio - it would normally take almost three days for it to happen on my CKD cut before where I was doing the ratio you suggest, but with this much fat, blammo. Like one day. And the fat doesn't get stored as fat - I figure I could eat the moon (if it were cheese) and it would all just get excreted out.

Call it an experiment in response to the debated question: Does the ratio of 65:30:5 on CKD relate to calories or grams?

And if you wouldn't mind, please send me some links as to where you got that the ratio was caloric. Lyle McDonald says it is by the grams.

[hisroyalhotness]

Workout today (1pm):
Flat Bench Press: 165 x 7.5 x 3
Barbell Squats: 135 x 10 x 3 (had always used smith machine, wanted to learn good form, went with small weight)
Walking lunges: 70 x 12 x 3
Bar Curls: 90 x 10 x 3
Dips 10 x 1
Machine pulldowns: 150 x 8 x1

22 g fat this morning,w 24 g pro.
Two hours later, 8 scoops Ultra Fuel (200g carbs)
PWO: 48 g protein.
Now will eat 200 g fat, 100 g pro for the rest of the day.

[David1991]

i'm gonna try to keep up with this log, i'm really interested in doing a keto bulk soon.

i dont know if i should do CKD or TKD but i've been hearing TKD for a bulk is better by most.

MrLovrLovr why is TKD better for bulking than CKD?

to the OP are u doing a full 2 day carb up? that seems like overkill

[hisroyalhotness]

I love this diet so fat. Seriously, I have gained weight under this diet but LOST fat. My BF percentage keeps dropping, and I see my abs more and more.

300g fat a day/200g pro/as little carbs as possible, but no more than 30 g a day. I use heavy cream, muenster cheese, salami, pepperoni, etc. to get to the 300 g of fat. I then usually require only a scoop or two of protein powder to make up the protein.

I have 800 calories of carbs Thursday morning. I work out and then get pumped up and go back to low carbs.

I then have about 800-1000 GRAMS of carbs over a 36 hour weekend carb up from Saturday afternoon to Sunday night. I use mostly Ultra Fuel for carbs, and two thirds of the way through the carb up I switch to pasta and later sweet potatoes.

During the carb ups I take citrimax and LOAD on the creatine. Like 8 tsp duing the carb up period. It rushes into your muscles, for instant hypertorphy.
Monday I always feel the biggest.

I work out with progressive overload training on Monday, Thursday, and Saturday, usually doing upper body Monday, whole body Thursday, legs and some extra upper body I missed on Saturday.
Sometimes if I have time I will go in on Tuesday, and Wednesday there is an abs class I try to make.

MrLovrLovr disagrees with me and states that my ratio is miscalculated. We agree on the numbers (65f/30p/5c). But he thinks the ratio has to do with calories, not grams. I do not know the answer, but this is working for me so far.

I suggest you read http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/ - there are three articles on CKD. First on the science behind it, second on cutting, third on bulking. Read all three.

As far as carb up, I am doing a 36 hour carb up. I start on saturday afternoon and go until sunday night.

Lyle McDonald says this:

"As always, experimentation and record keeping should
be your goal. But, you should always stop your carb-up when you
start to feel yourself smoothing out as this indicates that further
caloric intake will lead to fat gain. Which can be in as little as
24 hours if you eat donuts and Pop-tarts and 48 hours or more if you
eat pasta and bagels. Me, I'll take the donuts and Pop-tarts."

He also states:

"One other thing should be discussed relative to carbs and that
is the mid-week carb spike. Basically, this is an option that I
suggest you try to promote anabolism. You are allowed up to 1000
calories of carbs with some protein in the morning on Wednesday (you
should ideally have a training session later that morning or in the
evening so that ketosis can be reestablished) but then have to go
back to low carb eating. With proper carb-choices (i.e. glucose
polymers), it's possible to spike yourself back into ketosis with
this meal alone. Me, I'll keep my donuts handy."

As far as TKD, I couldn't find enough technical information (unlike lyle's resource) to figure out exactly what the hell TKD is. How many carbs am I supposed to eat after the workout? How often should I work out? I have no idea. So I went with what I know.

[David1991]

cool thanks for that, i've seen those 3 parts but i didnt know it had to do with bulking. i'll have to read them too, right now im reading his 300+ page book about ketosis. i actually talked my AP bio teacher into letting me do my report on it! LOL

as far as the ratio's go it's supposed to be with calories not grams but hey its working for u so stick with it

its crazy that u've gotten such good results with such "unhealthy" food

[hisroyalhotness]

It is pretty funny when the secretaries who work in my office watch me eating a salami and get jealous. The say, "You're a stick! How do you stay so thin and eat that food?" I tell them, "BECAUSE I eat that food."

I tried putting my gf on a ketogenic diet and she of course bitched and bitched about her headaches, and couldn't handle it.

I've quoted Lyle before - he says "grams" in the third paper. Take a look. He says "eat as much as you can put down."

Works for me.

[David1991]

It is pretty funny when the secretaries who work in my office watch me eating a salami and get jealous. The say, "You're a stick! How do you stay so thin and eat that food?" I tell them, "BECAUSE I eat that food."

I tried putting my gf on a ketogenic diet and she of course bitched and bitched about her headaches, and couldn't handle it.

I've quoted Lyle before - he says "grams" in the third paper. Take a look. He says "eat as much as you can put down."

Works for me.

yea like i said if it works for u then dont stop, but in general when people refer to a certain ratio of p/f/c they mean how many calories from each

[hisroyalhotness]

Chest 7
Abdominal 11
Thigh 9
Tricep 3
Subscapular 9
Suprailiac 5
Midaxillary 6

Body Fat % 6.83
Lbs/Kgs of Body Fat 12.09
Lean Body Weight 164.91

Yesterday went into carb up. Ate about 175 g fat, 150 g /pro.
From 6pm on, last night ate about 300 g of carbs, 100 g pro.

Today will be 1000g carbs, 300 g pro, and about 15-20 g fat.

[David1991]

Chest 7
Abdominal 11
Thigh 9
Tricep 3
Subscapular 9
Suprailiac 5
Midaxillary 6

Body Fat % 6.83
Lbs/Kgs of Body Fat 12.09
Lean Body Weight 164.91

Yesterday went into carb up. Ate about 175 g fat, 150 g /pro.
From 6pm on, last night ate about 300 g of carbs, 100 g pro.

Today will be 1000g carbs, 300 g pro, and about 15-20 g fat.

so ur doing a 36 hour carb up?

and so far u've gone from 175 at 10% to 178 at 6.8%? great job...damn ectos lol

[hisroyalhotness]

I didn't start at 10%. I was about 10% at 185 and then stopped for a bit. To my surprise I started at 173 and 8.6%, down to 6.9%. On CKD the weight goes up and down a lot but on average it goes the direction you're trying for. Tonight after the carb up, I'll be 181 or so. Then a couple days back down, but hopefully it will on average go up.

[hisroyalhotness]

Yesterday I ate 1000g carbs, 220g protein, and about 15g of fat.
Scale today says 177.6

[hisroyalhotness]

Workout -
80 lb bb press x 6x3
55 lb bb military press 10x3
170 lb cable row 10x3
preacher curl 155x10x2
overhead cable tri extension 60x10x2

[hisroyalhotness]

Weight this morning is 178.6.

[hisroyalhotness]

179.0 lbs

Chest 7
Abdominal 11
Thigh 10.5
Tricep 3
Subscapular 9
Suprailiac 5
Midaxillary 5

Body Fat % 6.91
12.37 lbs/body fat
166.63 lbs/lean body weight

[David1991]

i'm surprised an ecto would react so well to such low carbs

[hisroyalhotness]

My weight fluctuates. It could be water, it could be anything.
I just started - I think the rapid nature of the gains will cease.
On high carb high fat high protein diet I was able to pack on about 2-2.5 lbs a week. Of course, half or more was fat, so ? who knows.
I am hoping to gain about 1 lb a week with this, and zero fat gain. I surmise it won't be a problem until I get to about 200 - then gaining more weight is difficult for me.

[David1991]

My weight fluctuates. It could be water, it could be anything.
I just started - I think the rapid nature of the gains will cease.
On high carb high fat high protein diet I was able to pack on about 2-2.5 lbs a week. Of course, half or more was fat, so ? who knows.
I am hoping to gain about 1 lb a week with this, and zero fat gain. I surmise it won't be a problem until I get to about 200 - then gaining more weight is difficult for me.
yea the fact that u didnt drop down from water/glycogen loss is another surprising thing (unless u did when u started, i dont remember). either way it looks like it's going well, i still cant decide if i want to do CKD or TKD for a bulk but TKD seems to make more sense.

have u noticed a big strength boost?

[hisroyalhotness]

I did drop a bit. I went from 174.6 down to 173 initially.
I couldn't really tell you about a strength boost. I had kinda fallen off the wagon with lifting and was lifting a lot lighter.

[David1991]

oh alright but u didnt get weaker once starting the diet right? generally i hear about peoples strength going up a lot when starting something like the anabolic diet but now always

[hisroyalhotness]

The strength is related to how recently you ate carbs. Day after carb ups you'll have a rush of strength - you'll gain there. Three days later, you'll be flat and weaker.

[David1991]

The strength is related to how recently you ate carbs. Day after carb ups you'll have a rush of strength - you'll gain there. Three days later, you'll be flat and weaker.

not always, ive seen posts by people on the anabolic diet saying that even if their first 2 weeks their strength shot up like crazy, but its different with a lot of people

[hisroyalhotness]

Yeah being an attorney is sometimes hard on bodybuilding.
Interestingly enough, on Sunday my weight was down to 176. Monday and Tuesday I ate hardly anything and didn't get into the gym Monday as scheduled because I was involved in a trial. Maybe 1500 cals at best. However I ate 300g fat, 200g pro yesterday.
Here are the current stats:

Chest 7
Abdominal 11
Thigh 8
Tricep 3.5
Subscapular 7
Suprailiac 4
Midaxillary 7

Body Fat % 6.43
Lbs/Kgs of Body Fat 11.37
Lean Body Weight 165.43

Like I said, weight fluctuates, and I only expect to gain about one pound per week on this diet.

Oh and I lifted yesterday as well.
I did
Flat Bench: 170 x 6 x 3
BB Curls: 90x10x3
Unweighted Dips 10x2x1
Pulldowns 160x10x2
Machine rows 90x10x1

[hisroyalhotness]

178.0 this morning.
Yesterday did legs:
Squat 155x10x2
Squat 175x10x1
Lunges 40x12x3
Calf machine 90x10x3
Dumbell Deadlifts 70 (each hand)x5x3

[hisroyalhotness]

Started carb up.
Pre work out carbup -
Barbell Bench Press - 80 in each hand x 6 x 3

Superset
(decline flies 45 in each hand x 10, machine preacher curls 155 x 10, cable tricep extensions 60 x 10) x3

Lateral raise 25x10x3

Incline bench press 45x10x1

[hisroyalhotness]

This morning 179.6 lbs after carb up. From this point forward, the thread is getting too long due to detail. You guys are getting the idea.
I am gaining strength, weight, and muscle, and the fat gain is minimial, if there is any at all.
I am going to be posting weekly updates, but semi-daily updates to my bodyspace profile.
I will post any changes in diet. Keep in mind that I am not always eating all the fat I should - but I NEVER cheat and eat carbs when I shouldn't.
Most days I eat 250-300 g fats, 200g protein, less than 30 g carbs.
Carb up days is 800 cals of Ultra fuel Tuesday and about 4000 cals worth of ultra fuel on Sunday.

[David1991]

so basically your entire carb up is ultra fuel?

[hisroyalhotness]

This morning 179.6 lbs after carb up. From this point forward, the thread is getting too long due to detail. You guys are getting the idea.
I am gaining strength, weight, and muscle, and the fat gain is minimial, if there is any at all.
I am going to be posting weekly updates, but semi-daily updates to my bodyspace profile.
I will post any changes in diet. Keep in mind that I am not always eating all the fat I should - but I NEVER cheat and eat carbs when I shouldn't.
Most days I eat 250-300 g fats, 200g protein, less than 30 g carbs.
Carb up days is 800 cals of Ultra fuel Tuesday and about 4000 cals worth of ultra fuel on Sunday.

[hisroyalhotness]

181.4 lbs.
Yesterday's workout:
Squats 205x10x3
Calf extensions 180x30x3
Lunges 80x12x3
Weighted situps on machine 130x10x3
Back extensions w/ weight 45x10x1

[hisroyalhotness]

182.8 lbs

Chest 6.5
Abdominal 12
Thigh 9
Tricep 3
Subscapular 8.5
Suprailiac 4
Midaxillary 6.5

Body Fat Percentage: 6.75
lbs Body Fat: 12.34
Lean Body Mass 170.4


Fat is up just a smidgen this week. Weight is also up after carb up. I think that fat is up because on Friday I ate some ribs that I later found out contained loads of sugar in the sauce - must have kicked me out of ketosis - and also during the carb up this time I deviated from my normal routine of only eating Ultra Fuel for carbs and I ate some sugars - such as banana chips and some juice that contained a lot of sugar. I think I'll keep going until 190 and then do a 2 week cut.

[ruckrules]

Hi.

I have a question for you; I am on CKD Bulking, I am conusming about 700-1000 calories above my maintenance consumption.

You recommendes me to bulking in CKD for gaining Muscle Mass???

Is recommended a CKD bulking to Gain Muscle Mass???

I hope you can Answer me.

[MustBBig]

man, if you don't start to eat better you're going to kill yourself...an all those gains will be for nothing.I would put some time into researching healthy fat sources because if you keep eating high fat everything...well not so much high fat everything as that is the purpose of keto...but all your fat or the majority is saturated fat and your progress and your body will die out way faster...

[Anarium]

man, if you don't start to eat better you're going to kill yourself...an all those gains will be for nothing.I would put some time into researching healthy fat sources because if you keep eating high fat everything...well not so much high fat everything as that is the purpose of keto...but all your fat or the majority is saturated fat and your progress and your body will die out way faster...

I have some blood tests here that I had taken after being on Keto for about three months.
Total Cholesterol 136
Triglycerides 134
HDL 38
VLDL 27
LDL 71


According to the Dr. and my instructors at Nursing School, that is good. The one that actually saw how I eat on a regular basis is surprised I haven't had a heart attack yet.